South Africa Tour of Pakistan 2021

[Ed Smith]

Yes. The TL;DR is that they're not a good team because their players aren't very good (and the commitment to a quota makes the team even harder to balance)

Reckon the quota is still necessary?

 

[Aislabie]

Reckon the quota is still necessary?

I'd personally be against such a stiff quota continuing to exist.

If you pick the best possible SA XI, regardless of ethnicity, you get something like this:

Elgar
Markram
Rassie
Faf
von Tonder/Temba/Hamza
de Kock
Mulder/Muthusamy/Linde/Andile
Maharaj (but I miss Harmer)
Nortje
Rabada
Whoever the next best seamer is

It's still not great that there are so few POCs in that squad but until they start investing properly in grassroots cricket then this won't change

 

[Ed Smith]

Seems like it proper hamstrings them either way. You have players being picked purely because they're black, and not because they're best for the position. And then a lack of investment in actually producing quality players, regardless of colour. What a mess

 

[Aislabie]

Yeah; unlike most, I don't think Temba Bavuma is the folk devil we should be looking at. He's clearly got the ability to score runs at Test level (he wouldn't keep getting to 30 if he didn't) and is terrific in the field. He could even be a potential future captain.

I think the real symptom of a player being picked because of the colour of their skin is that Lutho Sipamla has a Test cap. I've nothing against him, and he even had a good series against Sri Lanka (but then so did Dom Bess), but I'd be reluctant to even list him in the top dozen seamers in South Africa

 

[Ed Smith]

Yeah; unlike most, I don't think Temba Bavuma is the folk devil we should be looking at. He's clearly got the ability to score runs at Test level (he wouldn't keep getting to 30 if he didn't) and is terrific in the field. He could even be a potential future captain.

I think the real symptom of a player being picked because of the colour of their skin is that Lutho Sipamla has a Test cap. I've nothing against him, and he even had a good series against Sri Lanka (but then so did Dom Bess), but I'd be reluctant to even list him in the top dozen seamers in South Africa

Aye Bavuma, seems a strange one to take it out on. He's more than capable at test level. Has the feel of a player who needs a solid run

 

[hammadahmed88]

I am astonished at people taking a position against a quota here. Please crack some history books. Cricket is the least of South Africa's problems. These policies are in place to tackle a larger systemic issue of black exclusion.

 

[hammadahmed88]

Aamer Yamin and Danish Aziz make it to the T20I squad. I love these selections.

With Aziz, Yamin, Haider, Faheem, Iftikhar, Khushdil, Amad and Hasan they've filled the team with power-hitters.

List of notable exclusion:

Was Azam Khan truly in consideration? He doesn't look to be in particularly good shape, no offense. It's so exhausting being a Pakistani cricket supporter when you see nepotism and stuff like this. Hopefully smarter people can take the team in a better direction. Hopefully the all-around embarrassment of what the board did with Fawad might serve as a deterrence but I am not holding my breath on that.

 

[Bevab]

Yeah; unlike most, I don't think Temba Bavuma is the folk devil we should be looking at. He's clearly got the ability to score runs at Test level (he wouldn't keep getting to 30 if he didn't) and is terrific in the field. He could even be a potential future captain.

I think the real symptom of a player being picked because of the colour of their skin is that Lutho Sipamla has a Test cap. I've nothing against him, and he even had a good series against Sri Lanka (but then so did Dom Bess), but I'd be reluctant to even list him in the top dozen seamers in South Africa

Pretty harsh on Sipamla who might be very raw at the moment but has oodles of potential that not many in South African cricket do at the moment (maybe Jansen and Coetzee). Despite the mediocre domestic record, it is clear why the team wants to keep him around.

 

[Ed Smith]

I am astonished at people taking a position against a quota here. Please crack some history books. Cricket is the least of South Africa's problems. These policies are in place to tackle a larger systemic issue of black exclusion.

I'm well aware of the history. But it doesn't mean the current quota system is a good way to deal with it

 

[CerealKiller]

I'm well aware of the history. But it doesn't mean the current quota system is a good way to deal with it

An "affirmative action" policy combined with heavy investments in black communities would be better than a fixed quota. For example, when it is a close call between a Black and white player, you go with the Black player.
The fixed quota system has only hamstrung the national team.

 

[Ed Smith]

An "affirmative action" policy combined with heavy investments in black communities would be better than a fixed quota. For example, when it is a close call between a Black and white player, you go with the Black player.
The fixed quota system has only hamstrung the national team.

Aye exactly. "Because he's black" shouldn't be the reason someone gets a test cap

 

[Aislabie]

I am astonished at people taking a position against a quota here. Please crack some history books. Cricket is the least of South Africa's problems. These policies are in place to tackle a larger systemic issue of black exclusion.

It is entirely possible to do the wrong things for the right reasons. You'd find it littered throughout those history books you mentioned.

I am in no way opposed to non-white South African cricketers being afforded opportunities; it's absolutely for the best that people from all walks of life can have equal opportunities to progress.

The quickest way to judge the idea of quotas is to reassign them a little. Would it be any different morally to mandate that the national team can include no more than four or five non-white cricketers? Because, by insisting that the team must have a certain number of any demographic inherently disadvantages other demographic groups.

Besides, real progress would be extensive grassroots investment, amd a substantial scholarship fund for non-white cricketers at an absolute minimum. But greater opportunity and investment will do far better work than declaring a token X number of non-white players, comprised in Y fashion

 

[CerealKiller]

It is entirely possible to do the wrong things for the right reasons. You'd find it littered throughout those history books you mentioned.

I am in no way opposed to non-white South African cricketers being afforded opportunities; it's absolutely for the best that people from all walks of life can have equal opportunities to progress.

The quickest way to judge the idea of quotas is to reassign them a little. Would it be any different morally to mandate that the national team can include no more than four or five non-white cricketers? Because, by insisting that the team must have a certain number of any demographic inherently disadvantages other demographic groups.

Besides, real progress would be extensive grassroots investment, amd a substantial scholarship fund for non-white cricketers at an absolute minimum. But greater opportunity and investment will do far better work than declaring a token X number of non-white players, comprised in Y fashion

Absolutely right.
Domestic teams also have quotas, and if they were effective, there wouldn’t be this scarcity of international level Black cricketers.
Makhaya Ntini, the first Black African to have played for South Africa, agrees

 

[hammadahmed88]

So nice to see people recognize the inequities even when disagreeing. It's refreshing. I completely agree that grassroots organizing and structural changes are the way to be. And I totally recognize the point about fixed quota systems. I do think though that being black in South Africa is not like any other demographic. In fact, it's not the same really anywhere. However I can recognize the good points made here. I think, personally, privileging black players is important. For me, international Test level is so high that unless you have a Dale Steyn or de Villiers type of player, the difference isn't really that great between players. It also helps matters of representation. One of those grassroots organizing methods is to encourage young, underprivileged black children to partake in organized sports like cricket. And that is substantially more difficult if they don't see themselves represented. But I can respect the points made here because I can tell they were made in good faith, and with good intentions.

On a side, I would recommend people check out Frantz Fanon's "The Wretched of the Earth". It's a bit outdated but still a must read in this area.

 

[Bevab]

Looks like QdK will resign after this test, good decision whoever is responsible for it. Still feels like half the reason to have Faf in the side is for him to be the actual leader.