Nope, whenever I've seen him, he operated generally above 80mph, with the odd delivery slipping as low as 76mph, but he was generally bowling around the speeds I mentioned earlier.
I didn't see that & the last time i saw him was in September on Sky in
this game. So its basically my word againts yours..
Not strictly true, he's bowled very well all round the country
Why is it the standard of batting you're questioning? No-one else is ripping through sides consistently like Davies. It's not like you've got 10 bowlers consistently taking 50+ wickets at an average in the teens each season. Davies is one of the only bowlers in England that's doing it consistently, which is incredible given his injury problems..
In 2007 Ottis Gibson @ 38/39 years old, who was a average bowler for most of his career was ripping throught county batsmen as much as Davies for that one season & was the leading quick bowler, wicket-taker in our domestic competition.
Mushtaq Ahmead & Kaneria season after season take loads of wickets in county cricket but yet for Pakistan (especially Mushtaq) haven't been able to replicate that bowling form in tests.
Steve Harmison who since his 7 test peak of 2004. Has constantly gone back to Durham & taken bucketloads of wickets, always given the false impression that he had regained his mojo. Yet everytime he was recalled based on his bowling form for Durham - it was almost as if nothing had changed.
Add Davies to this & is because of this why one has to question that standard of batting in Division 1, that has been in steady decline since the late 80s. Davies just isn't good enough to average 20 with the ball in FC cricket.
What exactly are you basing that on? Must be purely his pace, because he's tall at 6ft 3, is very accurate, bowls a consistently good line, gets movement in the air and off the track and takes wickets. Why are you so sure that he'd only take wickets on green tracks? Just because Jon Lewis couldn't doesn't mean Davies can't, just because they bowl at a similar pace doesn't mean they're exactly the same bowler.
If dont have pace on flat tracks you need to be able to reverse swing the ball & trait Davies certainly doesn't have. Him being accurate would not be good enough on flat pitches found around the world generally these days, since batsmen will sit on him i.e a spell of 30-10-90-0..
His pace and effectiveness had declined considerably, yet he took a wicket in every WC game he played in 07 and took more wickets than any bowler in the history of the WC. He also took 21 wickets at 23 in the 06/07 Ashes, I'm not so convinced he'd have struggled that much if he'd played. Despite being down on pace, he's still a world class bowler, and as mentioned earlier, there's far more to bowling than just pace, even on flat wickets.
Again this all comes down to perception of pace that Davies bowls right now - that McGrath bowled during the 2006 Ashes.
During the 2006 Ashes McGrath was consistently still between the 80-85 mph, while dropping into the 75-79 in the odd spells. He was quicker than what Davies is right now, when he bowled in the Ashes.
In the 2007 WC is when McGrath first began to show a drop in pace to what Davies bowls. You really can't compare or use McGrath success in the 2007 WC as a guide to how Davies would go in international cricket because:
- McGrath even at reduced pace in the 2007 was still better than Mark Davies right now.
- Mark Davies doesn't play OD cricket for Durham because he is trash in that format.
The pace McGrath was bowling in IPL 2008 & 2009 (which is Davies pace)there is no way had he prologned his test career for the 2008 Australian summer that he would been very effective. He would have had stinkin farewell, since he wouldn't have dismissed those Indian batsmen on those flat pitches.
The only great fast-bowler i know of that was excellent at ages 38/39 was Hadlee & to a level Walsh.
It tells me that he's a mighty fine bowler. Not as good as Alec Bedser, but better than Jon Lewis and Mike Smith. What you seem to bring up time and time again is that you believe he and Lewis/Smith/Larsen are all the same bowler, they're not. Davies is clearly a class above them, as he's ripping through batting line-ups at a rate they could only dream of. Davies steam-rolling CC Div 1 batsmen is far more impressive than you're giving him credit for.
Ha. As i keep saying you need to take domestic stats in England with a pinch of salt. Just because he has been ripping through average county line-ups at a better rate than Lewis & Smith doesn't mean he is better than them.
By the argument you can say Ramps is defiantely better test batsmen than Collingwood because they have been dominating county bowlers far better than he is. But at the end of the day, we both know which batsmen has doen well in tests & who has failed.
Of course generally even in a average FC competition, the general rule is that even the best of the average bunch will rise to the top. But IMO its clearly not the case here with Davies. Again we need to start using our eyes & based on what i've seen of Lewis & Smith i see no difference between them & Davies as bowlers.
It is utter disgrace & indictment on the modern county standards that Mark Davies has compared domestic average to great Alec Bedser. As i keep saying the selectors must have some qualms about him, not to RUSH him into the test set-up right now. Since i can't see a fast bowler averaging 20 in FC right now & not being picked in Australia or South Africa.
Look over in the Windies. Nikita Miller averages 18 with the ball in their FC competition. No one would say he is the next Alf Valentine, based on watching him bowl in international cricket to date - he is clearly not as good as his FC average suggests.The overall point is if a bowler is averaging that well in a domestic system - it should be a clear guide to how he may go in international cricket. If not the domestic competition standard must come under question - thus the quality of the bowler comes under scrutiny.
I saw Mahmood bowl last year, and felt he deserved a call-up. He looked sharp, more accurate and was bowling at a consistent pace, not up and down like he used to be. I was wrong, and he bowled awfully in SA, but when we're so short on options, I think he was worth a go.
Thats the problem here. You can't take that approach, unfortuantely the England selectors do take this approach & haven't learnt that you can't take all FC & List A performances on face value.
Our ODI team has generally been crap since World 1992. So its plainly obvious List A cricket is crap in England. So the selectors clearly at this stage need to look beyond just List A stats to picking players in the ODI team - but pick players on a bit of raw talent. But yet we have seen the same mistakes made over & over with the constant selection of crap bits a pieces all-rounders mainly & joke openers..
Mahmood had to do ALOT more that just seem like he was not up & down like used to be in ONE season - he really needed to do it for at least 2 seasons before a "tentative" recall could have been made. Thats why you & many others where wrong about him. How could he been recalled when he was hardly bowling to any batsmen in List A cricket that where of international standard??. It was a disaster waiting to happen so he failed accordingly in South Africa & was for some bloody reason the selectors picked him the T20 30-man provisional squad:doh
How? Davies is more accurate, gets more movement, doesn't bowl much slower and he's taking his wickets at County level at a far better rate. Bresnan's bowling on one of the greenest tracks in England up at Yorkshire, yet he's not putting in anywhere close to the results of Davies. Think you've just been sucked into this lack of pace = terrible bowler mindset. I just hope Davies gets the chance to prove you wrong.
As i said i dont expect Bresnan to have much effect on test match cricket as much as i dont expect it from Davies. AFAIC neither a test quality.
But again just looking at Bresnan bowl, again my friend lets for a minute just put away his stats to side. I just reckon Bresnan
could, by whatever means trouble test batsmen more than Davies is most conditions.
I dont know how Headingley is more bowler friendly that Chester-le-Street. In the last decade if we just look at the test matches that have been played @ Headingley we have a few roads mixed with seamer friendly decks. Right now i'd say Durham is pretty much the only consistent bowler friendly deck in England throughout a domestic season.
If i'm been sucked into this lack of pace = terrible bowler mindset. Then i'm afraid you have been sucked into his great average = very good potential bowler mindset.
Their is enough reason as i listed above why we can't take Davies average on face value & England can not pick him, thus disproving you & the other Davies backers.
While their enough proof backing my position that I have already explained why based on the evolution of test cricket, why a medium pacer like him would not be successful in international cricket today. Pollock, Vaas, Fraser, Clark all where either banished or became less effective test bowlers where they became medium pace as Davies right now at the back end of their careers.
You got be Alec Bedser, Bob Appleyard, Sid Barnes, Fazal Mahmood special to have effect in all conditions bowling that pace in this age of flat decks.
Ian Bell, Alastair Cook, Matt Prior, Phil Mustard, Ravi Bopara and Joe Denly were all picked ahead of Jonathan Trott in the England ODi squad. I don't think you should be using our selectors as any basis for an argument.
Hold up sparky.
- I know for sure Denly & Mustard weren't picked before him. Check that back son.
- While Cook & Bell where picked ahead of him because Trott hadn't qualified to play for England when these two guys first played.
Trott qualified officially in 2007 IIRC & intially he didn't look that impressive. But yes i know our ODI selectors have generally been gash, i mentioned that earlier. They usually get test selection fairly good though, so yea i agree with them for not taking Davies to Bangladesh even if their reasoning may be different from mine for not doing so.
Don't rate Sidebottom. Think we should move on from him. He's looked terrible since 2008, he can't stay fit, lacks effectiveness with the white ball, has lacked nip with the red ball and generally bowled too wide in Tests. Still riding off the back of 2 good series against NZ, not really done much of note since. I'd move on and give someone like Davies a go.
Would have disagree. Yes indeed Sidebottom injuries since 08 has been disappointing, but he is still the best quick once fit behind the our average main trio of Anderson/Broad/Onions - no way should Davies leadfrogg him. Thought he bowled fairly well in the Jo'Burg test.
I would get him out of the ODI set-up now though. No issue with that.
Not the same argument at all. Rankin and Finn are 2 young bowlers, Finn has taken his wickets at a better rate, and whenever I've watched them bowl he's looked the better prospect.
How is not the same argument? As you said you are saying Finn as taken wickets at a better rate, so that means you are judging & backing him over Rankin based on stats right?
Its the same thing in saying James Taylor over Morgan as first back-up batsmen in the test squad. Two young batsmen, Taylor has scored more runs in DIV 2 than Morgan - thus Taylor by having the better domestic form should be ahead of Morgan.
But of course this shouldn't be the case.
King Pietersen added 1 Minutes and 59 Seconds later...
What are these unique skills that fast bowlers require to be successful then? Davies is tall so will get bounce, is deadly accurate, gets swing and seam movement. What unique skills does he need? Other than pace which seems to be #1 on your list of requirements as far as bowlers go. Davies bowls around the same pace as Luke Wright, so he must be a bowler on a similar level.
- Bounce?. Nah i dont know about that.
- Accurate yes. Saying he is deadly accurate is slight OTT. I can definately see international batsmen hitting him off his lenght if they get set.
- Gets swing & seam movement yes. But only if he gets the perfect conditions. I cannot see Davies swing the new red kokuburra on flat Adelaide oval wicket, as he does with the Duke ball @ CLS for Durham.
He is lacking reverse swing to be effective on roads/flat pitches.
As far as I'm concerned though, Mark Davies should definitely be up for consideration for the Ashes tour, should he have another exceptional season.
