Australia tour of West Indies March-April 2011/12

[Dare]

I guess this is the double standard that the WICB and Gibson seems to be pushing, Gayle is an enemy of West Indies cricket because he spoke out, that was further compounded by his 20/20 world wide contract, nevertheless he is not contracted by WICB, Samuels however is contracted yet allowed to choose the IPL over his contracted obligations to West Indies, this makes no sense!

And they also let Narine play the entire IPL. Pollard and Bravo aren't contracted but they are always in the team for the ODis and T20s. With Gayle its not about the issues he has with the board anymore its about the board being power hungry.

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But some news out of Antigua, the big ma will be back playing for the West Indies!! Chris Gayle to return to West Indies | Antigua Observer Newspaper Have a read guys.

Well that's good news. No doubt about his place in the ODI and T20 teams but what happens in tests? I know that Barath and Brathwaite haven't set the world alight but they are the future openers for the WI.

 

[WestIndian]

And they also let Narine play the entire IPL. Pollard and Bravo aren't contracted but they are always in the team for the ODis and T20s. With Gayle its not about the issues he has with the board anymore its about the board being power hungry.

I agree with you, and this is maybe the reason why they have somewhat reclined on their stance. Sooner or later the public would cry out why are contracted players allowed to play in the IPL blah... blah.... blah.... and Gayle is being punished.

This could have ended months ago, but no all I kept reading all over the place is that Gayle is not bigger than the game, I kept asking the question, is the WICB and the coach bigger than the game.

 

[Sedition]

The fantasy cricket game for the first test has been created. Seems most people missed it as there are only 2 registrations

Register your team here. Good luck

 

[War]

To be fair to the West Indies if Samuels is the best option at #6 then he should be there. I don't really care if it was his first time or fifth time in the IPL. If a player is contracted with the WICB then he should be there representing the region.

I don't disagree with the premise here. I'm just insinuating that given that although he is a contracted player, given he has been given this IPL for the first time in his career - one he may not ever get again - I can see why Samuels would not want to bypass this financial opportunity.

For the last 6 years he has been playing with a poor team and put up big numbers so to me that says that the captaincy would be a bad idea.

Good so why do you think this would that change even he is given the captaincy now with a good team at his disposal?

This at the moment is a full strength West Indies team. Forget all that ???????? with Gayle. He is not in the team (no matter how badly everyone wants him back in the team) and someone else has taken his spot. Sarwan hasn't done anything of note since the home series against England when the WI won 1-0 so he really isn't the best and at the moment Kirk Edwards has done well in the few opportunities he had but at least he is playing allot of matches unlike Sarwan. Sarwan needs to have a really good year in English cricket to get back into the team and also stay healthy which he hasn't done for the last 6-7 years.
No matter how you look at it this is the best team that the WI have available to them. Gayle isn't available, Sarwan isn't available, Bravo isn't even good enough to be in this best XI and he has only played a handful of first class matches in the last 2-3 years and just going by that he shouldn't even be in the team.

Even if you want to exclude Gayle given the obvious issues and Sarwan, the West Indies could still field a very good test XI:

Barath, Edwards, Nash/Simmons, Bravo, C'Paul, Samuels/Deonarine, Ramdin, Narine/Bishoo, Rampaul, Roach, Edwards

He is more or less being sacrificed for the job. Without a better option he has been given the job and led the team well. You can see that he does his job with pride and unlike many of the other names he is there for all the WI matches.

Darren Sammy is no captaincy genius in the ilk and supremely influential figure as Mike Brearley was for England in the late 70s and early 80s in which although he was not one of England's top 7 batsmen - his captaincy credentials were deemed good enough to hold down a place in the team on merit.

As you said he is being sacrificed for the job and although he may doing the best he can at it, one cannot let emotion cloud judgement towards to obvious fact the he is preventing West Indies for picking its best 4-man bowling attack in a test match.

Without a suitable captain every team would be affected, especially the WI with all their issues.
You say that this is a better WI team then the one Shiv had in 05/06 but who is really proven here? Bravo, Edwards, Brahtwaite, Bishoo are all in their first year of cricket and still have allot to prove. Barath, Deonarine and Rampaul are all fairly new to test cricket. Fidel Edwards is the most experienced cricketer after Shiv but is nowhere near captaincy material. If you take out Sammy and replace him with Roach then there is no option but Shiv who will have to lead almost the same team he lead during his captaincy. Nobody other then Shiv and Fidel have proven much at international level.

Its best Windies team in a decade that combines quality experienced players and talented young players.

Bravo, Edwards, Barath and Braithwaite, Pollard, Simmons is certainly a more impressive crop of young batsmen than the group Darren Ganga, Leon Garrick, Sylvester and Dave Joseph, Murton, Ricardo Powell, Ragoonath, Dowlin, Ryan Hinds etc etc that emerged during the last 10 years.

Bishoo and Narine are is the first the windies have had two spinners that have caused such excitement since Valentine/Ramadhin in the 1950s. The likes Rawl Lewis, Perry, Benn, Bresse, Nagamootoo, McGrarrell, Mohammed, Jaggernauth, Miller who played before them certainly didn't create such sentiments.

 

[sifter132]

I'm well aware of the Sammy hate, but I would just like to point out that he has the lowest Test bowling average of any of the 5 bowlers WI have picked in the squad (Sammy 30.05, Roach 32.62, Rampaul 34.71, Bishoo 36.23, Edwards 37.45). All of them have played at least 10 Tests, so it's not misleading to list them that way. He also has a higher batting average than any of them, and he's the captain. So to imply that he's somehow being carried is a bit rich IMHO. In ODIs I can see the argument, but his Test record is quite respectable. I know he doesn't really pass the 'eye' test on what makes a great cricketer, but he seems to have been effective enough in his career thus far. Why all the rage about his spot? It's not like he's keeping out Curtley Ambrose here, it's fricken Ravi Rampaul.

I personally think Australia would love to see Rampaul play over Sammy because it would open up their scoring opportunities more. The thing I worry about as an Aussie fan is Bishoo bowling hand grenades, and the batters getting bogged down and playing stupid shots. Sammy helps that plan more than Rampaul. If Edwards, Roach and Rampaul are rotating opposite Bishoo, I think Australia would be able to keep scoring at a pretty good rate.

The other thing I didn't realise about Sammy is that he's only 28. It feels like he's been around forever. Therefore I feel it's a bit harsh to imply that the other 3 quicks have great potential, while Sammy doesn't. Certainly Edwards who has just hit 30, is often injured and will only slow down in future is hardly a lock in the WI future plans.

 

[WestIndian]

I'm well aware of the Sammy hate, but I would just like to point out that he has the lowest Test bowling average of any of the 5 bowlers WI have picked in the squad (Sammy 30.05, Roach 32.62, Rampaul 34.71, Bishoo 36.23, Edwards 37.45). All of them have played at least 10 Tests, so it's not misleading to list them that way. He also has a higher batting average than any of them, and he's the captain. So to imply that he's somehow being carried is a bit rich IMHO. In ODIs I can see the argument, but his Test record is quite respectable. I know he doesn't really pass the 'eye' test on what makes a great cricketer, but he seems to have been effective enough in his career thus far. Why all the rage about his spot? It's not like he's keeping out Curtley Ambrose here, it's fricken Ravi Rampaul.

I personally think Australia would love to see Rampaul play over Sammy because it would open up their scoring opportunities more. The thing I worry about as an Aussie fan is Bishoo bowling hand grenades, and the batters getting bogged down and playing stupid shots. Sammy helps that plan more than Rampaul. If Edwards, Roach and Rampaul are rotating opposite Bishoo, I think Australia would be able to keep scoring at a pretty good rate.

The other thing I didn't realise about Sammy is that he's only 28. It feels like he's been around forever. Therefore I feel it's a bit harsh to imply that the other 3 quicks have great potential, while Sammy doesn't. Certainly Edwards who has just hit 30, is often injured and will only slow down in future is hardly a lock in the WI future plans.

Like it or not Sammy is being carried, and that sentiment is being echoed down here. The fact is had it not been for the countless issues with our cricket and the politics of it Sammy (sadly) would only be a 12th man. We could have had a very good bowling attack with the likes of Taylor, Edwards, Roach, Rampaul while injuries played their part the thing we need to ask is what was and is being done to help these players get back to their best, what has the WICB been doing to have them back on track and this is part of what Gayle spoke out about. That said the best West Indies XI does not include Sammy and Baugh.
As for your point on Edwards, we all know that he is quick and can match any of the Aussies with his pace, if he plays without injury he will trouble any of them, same for Roach, so I don't think Bishoo is the only worry they should have, because even Rampaul can be just as difficult to play. This series I believe will come down to which side bats better.

 

[midgetwars]

Oh, i highly doubt carrying Sammy can be that bad. I mean Australia carried Johnson for how long?

 

[War]

I'm well aware of the Sammy hate, but I would just like to point out that he has the lowest Test bowling average of any of the 5 bowlers WI have picked in the squad (Sammy 30.05, Roach 32.62, Rampaul 34.71, Bishoo 36.23, Edwards 37.45). All of them have played at least 10 Tests, so it's not misleading to list them that way. He also has a higher batting average than any of them, and he's the captain. So to imply that he's somehow being carried is a bit rich IMHO. In ODIs I can see the argument, but his Test record is quite respectable. I know he doesn't really pass the 'eye' test on what makes a great cricketer, but he seems to have been effective enough in his career thus far. Why all the rage about his spot? It's not like he's keeping out Curtley Ambrose here, it's fricken Ravi Rampaul.

I personally think Australia would love to see Rampaul play over Sammy because it would open up their scoring opportunities more. The thing I worry about as an Aussie fan is Bishoo bowling hand grenades, and the batters getting bogged down and playing stupid shots. Sammy helps that plan more than Rampaul. If Edwards, Roach and Rampaul are rotating opposite Bishoo, I think Australia would be able to keep scoring at a pretty good rate.

The other thing I didn't realise about Sammy is that he's only 28. It feels like he's been around forever. Therefore I feel it's a bit harsh to imply that the other 3 quicks have great potential, while Sammy doesn't. Certainly Edwards who has just hit 30, is often injured and will only slow down in future is hardly a lock in the WI future plans.

Firstly let be clear their is no Sammy hate here at least on my part. Their is just a clear understanding that if all was well with West Indies cricket, that he would be 12th man or be nowhere near to any squad (much less the starting XI) in any format.

You are an intelligent poster, so i'm a give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you simple question. Looking beyond those stats which highlight Sammy has a better average than any of the current bowling group - do you seriously believe that average is apt representation of how good his bowling is in tests?

No way would AUS batsmen be better off facing Rampaul than Sammy. That is gross insult to Rampaul and the transformation he has made as a bowler since he took that five wicket-haul vs India the 2011 world cup. You seem to judging Rampaul based on how he looked the last time AUS say him.

The three quicks in the squad plus people like Andre Russell and Shanon Gabriel clearly have more potential than Sammy as bowling group of 90 mph bowlers to give the windies a pace bowling depth - similar to what England, South Africa and Australia have right now.

Even if you seem to believe Sammy has potential as i stated before in this thread, you will know all about Australia situation with Trent Copeland.

After the Ashes nightmare last year, AUS bowling stocks seemed below par and an injury proned Harris was pinpointed as the attack leader for the Sri Lanka tour. Copeland a similar 120-125 mph bowler like Sammy (although more accomplished based on his efforts in First class cricket in a tougher competition) was drafted in since it was unanimously felt AUS needing a disciplined bowler to tie up and end.

Copeland did this job in SRI as AUS won that series. But since that series as you know, AUS have had the emergence of three exciting young 90 mph quick bowlers in Cummins, Pattinson and Starc along with the re-emergence
Siddle and Hilfenhaus. Due to this Copeland has been banished and no one has been up in arms.

The West Indies have the same issue and i'm 1000% certain if they are allowed to freely unleash their versions of young talented bowlers in a properly balanced attack on merit in place of Sammy - West Indies will not impacted by Sammy's non presence in the bowling attack, similar to AUS ATM without Copeland.

Finally Edwards is certainly a lock in West Indies future plans he is their spearhead. His performances since he return from his 2-year back injury certainly highlights this.

The WICB selectors because of his injury past don't play him in ODIs in an effort to keep him fresh.

 

[WestIndian]

Oh, i highly doubt carrying Sammy can be that bad. I mean Australia carried Johnson for how long?

Come on, how much more do you want to prove that Sammy is being carried? Hey I have nothing personally against him, he got a big heart but truth be told, a full strength XI and Sammy would be carrying water, or as War said not even be close to the squad. Slot Gayle and Samuels in the XI and sadly Sammy is nowhere to be found!

 

[Sedition]

Australian side looks to be coming together as expected, just down to Pattinson vs. Harris it seems. I still think Harris should be the man based on shield form and the practice match, but I have some uncertainty about him after the previous tests and ODIs in Australia.

Pattinson on the other hand bowled brilliantly up until his first injury during the test series, but has struggled in the limited overs games and possibly carrying a second injury.

It's a tough choice really.. Harris could be brilliant or ????????, Pattinson could be brilliant or average.

 

[Dare]

Good so why do you think this would that change even he is given the captaincy now with a good team at his disposal?

Because there is nothing that shows that he can do it with the pressure of the captaincy. Some records from domestic cricket in which he captained Guyana in a few games this year don't show anything.
You used the example of Pakistan to back your point but the problem with that is that Misbah is not the best batsman on that team and the pressure is not on him to score all the teams runs. Younis is the best batsman on that team and Pakistan also have a better opening pair not to mention arguably the top spin bowler in cricket at this moment.
To make Shiv the captain now with all the pressure on him to score runs especially with the other top 5 batsman having played about a quarter of the test matches that Shiv has played would be detrimental to Shiv himself and the team. Even if Gayle and Sarwan were there I would not make Shiv the captain, he is 37 and only plays test match cricket for the West Indies which means there would have to be another captain appointed for T20 and ODI and that would just set the team back. It would set them back even more than you say having Sammy as captain does.

Come on, how much more do you want to prove that Sammy is being carried? Hey I have nothing personally against him, he got a big heart but truth be told, a full strength XI and Sammy would be carrying water, or as War said not even be close to the squad. Slot Gayle and Samuels in the XI and sadly Sammy is nowhere to be found!

But who is the captain then? In ODIs and T20s there are a few options but in tests there aren't that many at all. Just like Sammy is being sacrificed for that position at this moment someone else would have to be sacrificed to take over the captaincy from him. Gayle is not getting it back and that's the only option I see in the test team.

 

[sifter132]

Firstly let be clear their is no Sammy hate here at least on my part. Their is just a clear understanding that if all was well with West Indies cricket, that he would be 12th man or be nowhere near to any squad (much less the starting XI) in any format.

You are an intelligent poster, so i'm a give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you simple question. Looking beyond those stats which highlight Sammy has a better average than any of the current bowling group - do you seriously believe that average is apt representation of how good his bowling is in tests?

Well, I'm the first to admit I don't follow WI cricket as much as I could/should. I was merely surprised by what I found as I went through the figures. So I answer no, I thought his average would be about 35, maybe even 40+ given the rubbishing he gets . But the fact all the other bowlers average around 35 as well tells me that either: a) the others aren't really that good after all, or b) Sammy is more effective than I give him credit for, or perhaps c) the other bowlers will get better eventually over time as they have better potential than Sammy. I think there's probably a bit of all 3 factors at play.

No way would AUS batsmen be better off facing Rampaul than Sammy. That is gross insult to Rampaul and the transformation he has made as a bowler since he took that five wicket-haul vs India the 2011 world cup. You seem to judging Rampaul based on how he looked the last time AUS say him.

You are right I haven't seen him play. I was only going off career numbers. 2011 makes Rampaul look better. 2011 averages for those playing at home: Rampaul 25.03, Sammy 29.10, Edwards 29.90, Bishoo 36.23, Roach 55.14. So yeah, Rampaul deserves his spot then no question, but at the same time to say Sammy is dragging the chain isn't fair either.

Even if you seem to believe Sammy has potential as i stated before in this thread, you will know all about Australia situation with Trent Copeland.

After the Ashes nightmare last year, AUS bowling stocks seemed below par and an injury proned Harris was pinpointed as the attack leader for the Sri Lanka tour. Copeland a similar 120-125 mph bowler like Sammy (although more accomplished based on his efforts in First class cricket in a tougher competition) was drafted in since it was unanimously felt AUS needing a disciplined bowler to tie up and end.

Copeland did this job in SRI as AUS won that series. But since that series as you know, AUS have had the emergence of three exciting young 90 mph quick bowlers in Cummins, Pattinson and Starc along with the re-emergence
Siddle and Hilfenhaus. Due to this Copeland has been banished and no one has been up in arms.

Sammy vs Copeland is pretty fair from what I've seen. But I think the Aussie pace battery is clearly better than the WI pace group, so I'm not sure comparing their situations is fair. Roach and Edwards in particular are all hype and little performance given their pace and talent.

The guy I'd compare Sammy to a bit is Vettori because the other factor is team role. I think Sammy in theory should work pretty well as a 3rd quick behind 2 other speedsters with a wily spinner: Bishoo/Narine in the mix. The other 3 should strike regularly enough to not notice Sammy's highish S/R, while Sammy can tie up an end and build pressure to help get wickets, and of course contribute with the bat. Similar to Vettori's role. Although for NZ, they may not have the raw strike power in their attack to let them keep carrying Vettori if he can't take wickets.

And meanwhile once Siddle learned how to bowl straight consistently then Copeland was redundant, because his strength was covered by the other quicks. Harris, Pattinson, Hilfenhaus - all tend to bowl good lines consistently as opposed to a previous attack of Johnson and Siddle version 1.

 

[swacker]

Was interesting to hear Cowan talking today, pretty much said hes nervous, especially because hes got no idea about the Windies bowlers

 

[Sedition]

Haven't heard Cowan's interview, but during the India series his interviews were oozing confidence, so that's not really good to hear.

Something interesting from the cricinfo preview:
Only three members of the Australia squad - Ricky Ponting, Michael Clarke and Michael Hussey - have played Tests in the Caribbean before.

Watson, Warner and Hilfy have a few ODIs under their belt on this tour, but otherwise I expect us to be a bit scratchy in this first test.

 

[swacker]

Haven't heard Cowan's interview

Cowan wary of Windies ambush | Cricket | Fox Sports