England in New Zealand

[irottev]

@ irottev - what has happened to Scott Styris?

He's retired from test cricket. I'm not surprised you haven't heard about it, since no kind of news coming out of NZ ever gets much attention. He's focusing on the one day forms. It was after he was left out of the squad vs Bangladesh (which was absurd selection).

Bad luck Vettori. He's had bad luck this series really. Bowled well. McCullum has been bad by his standards with the gloves. Gotta be his worst series sadly.

 

[barmyarmy]

Right night all. Well done Sidebottom and Broad today.

 

[cheese]

Without Fleming quite frankly you just have to go with youth. Keep a couple of the mid to late 20's players you have and mix it with the good kids you have, presumably some from the U19s etc. Plan for the future and hope they pull together.

Daniel Flynn (23)
Jesse Ryder (23)
Corey Anderson (U19 just 17 yrs bats like Cairns)

My squad for the tour.

1. Jamie How
2. -------------> Daniel Flynn (potential) / Jesse Ryder - injured
3. Peter Fulton
4. Ross Taylor
5. Greg Hay
6. Jacob Oram
7. Brendan McCullum (vc)
8. Daniel Vettori (c)
9. Kyle Mills
10. Tim Southee (his batting is shocking actually)
11. Chris Martin

12. Deepak Patel
13. James Franklin
14. Grant Elliot
15. Mark Gillespie

I agree with the quote. I think if ever there was a side that we can develop talent with, other than Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, it's England. They regularly have batting collapses, so batting wise even when we have youngsters we won't be that much worse off.

I heard that Tresgothick retired due to health problems. Poor bloke. Good luck to him.

I also heard that FLintoff is back in May, that'll strengthen your batting AND bowling.

 

[irottev]

I hope Franklin is fit for the England series. Haven't hearn anything about him for ages. Hopefully he's almost fit to play in the State Championship.

My only problem with your squad is that Flynn isn't really an opener. I really don't want to even attempt to pick an opener. I'd sadly have to go with Cumming and perhaps take someone like BJ Watling over as wel as backup and to give him a sniff. Hay should go in at 4 and Taylor 5 in my opinion as that's where they've been batting of late.

 

[vaibhav mehta]

Well Bowled Sidebottom...England on fire here...
That was beauty from Sidebottom..
Another good thing is Strauss playing..Please touch wood one Century from him and I'll have to give answer to many peoples on many threads..
Please Strauss make his time Big one..
@NZ point f view what happened to Bell???
I think need to get rid of Bell and Sinclair...Fleming played well but last match for master there i hope He'll score more in second innings..

 

[Skater]

Precisely now, I feel Sidebottom is one of the best bowlers in the world. He is rarely needed to have a rest, he is almost always accurate from the beginning, and he has deadly swing. Shows our domestic system isn't as bad as some people think. I believe he will cause South Africa's batsmen a lot of problems this season.

Well, I was shocked to see we were on top at the end after what I saw in the first session! They were being compared to the Ilford second XI then! If we bat sensibly tonight we have got a great chance of winning the series.

 

[irottev]

I've never seen or heard of a bowler of his pace bowling 15 overs in a row in one day with no rain delays. That's just amazing. And he bowled brilliantly. I have no doubt he's one of the best around at the moment.

 

[vaibhav mehta]

Ya..He has got the agression and capacity well balanced...and thats what you need to be a good bowler..
Anyway Irottev any comment about Bell and Sinclair..I think its too much now..Sinclair looks like o me dead as a player..He doesn't look in confident even when he leaves the Ball!!!!
From my point of view NZ need big changes in tests for middle orders..because after the master Fleming There will be more pressure on middle order..And i don't think except Taylor anyone now is capable to handle it..

 

[Vcassano]

Southee won't be a revelation... he'll fade away. But Cheese you do know wikipedia is not a valid source of reference, right? It is user-created content, thereby not reliable.

Anyway I am not so sure England's score is all that bad. Obviously getting bowled out for less than 300 (Unless a miracle happens) batting first is poor but New Zealand's line up is weak. They seem to struggle when they are favourites or are expected to perform (sounds really familiar...) which they are here. Plus they weakened their batting line up with the loss of Oram, though not considerably. I'd expect them to get a lead of about 50 but nothing more.

Well done to this chap.

lol at you English fans. I love your continuous "this is only NZ. We should be winning" comments, and the "X failed again, let's drop him though he averages about 42".

:'(

Brilliant, just brilliant.

I'm not cricket expert, but I do spend considerable amount of time researching and reading other people's comments about pitches and how any particular game is going. Southee won't fade away because of his natural action. It's also about demeanor. So far, I have not seen a Jesse Ryder in him and he seems eloquent, and humble about his efforts on the field.

Being eloquent and polite doth not maketh a legend. Lara certainly wasn?t ? he was aloof and arrogant. Tendulkar is but the defining characteristic is ruthlessness and there is little proof ? yet ? that he has this.

To be a legend, you not only need to be disciplined, you need to know how to be the best. I've read Lillee's generous praise on him and then HAdlee (read my older posts).

Just because a legend says something doesn?t make it fact. Botham makes a lot of statements buy they are, more often than not, reactionary rubbish.

He'll have his bad days with the ball, but I do not expect him to get dropped easily. Vettori is one case example. Talent is so scarce in New Zealand it's hard to drop talent. Look at how long England persisted with Harmison because of his talent.

Oh I agree, but this doesn?t mean he?ll be any good. I mean look at Vettori?s averages ? over 30. Hardly amazing stuff, though he is a good player.

The only difference between a legend and just another good bowler is also based on the conditions he's brought into when he started. Not just talent, talent that is managed well, and talent that doesn't get too big on himself (ie gets lazy).

No, a legend (in cricketing terms) is a player that bowls or bats extraordinarily well over a prolonged period of time while also doing so with considerable flourish. Legends have an innate skill that is of a higher level than their contemporaries. Obviously they need to work at it, but they are at a higher level in the first place.

 

[King Pietersen]

What a day of cricket. I gave up watching last night when Jimmy got smashed around by Fleming but I should have stayed up until after lunch. Sidebottom's the most inform bowler in the world other than Lee and Steyn atm. He's fantastic, he's learnt his trade, swings the ball, bowls a flawless line, has immaculate control, he's fantastic. I love Peter Moores for giving him a chance; Saj Mahmood would be on tour if it wasn't for Moores.

Strauss and Pietersen to get hundreds tommorow and put the game beyond the New Zealand batters. I never thought New Zealand should have had a chance of winning this series, only Fleming and How seem to have the ability to grind out an innings. Bell, Sinclair, Taylor, Oram/Elliot, McCullum and Vettori are talented but extremely inconsistent. I can't see England giving this game away from here.

 

[vaibhav mehta]

No chance..England will win for sure...But you know from past one year KP's 100 was the first 100 from top order English batsman..Plus the way people treating Strauss(Still I believe hes one of the best opener England ever have)He need to get 100 to show that hes still good in business..
Lots of time remaining now.Time is not worrying factor as far as result is concerned but Lots of runs from English top order will give lots of Confident..because Except KP everybody is struggling with the Runs...

 

[manee]

Sidebottom bowled well today, but the batsmen did seem to play silly shots. McCullum in particular should know not to try and cut anything which both angles and swings in. I am still not too sure what Matthew Bell was doing. Sinclair's wicket was also due to an awful shot. It would seem that although not a batting paradise, a lot of wickets have simply come from poor shot selection and a lack of application at the crease. Southee looked like a true tailender at the crease too. He seemed almost scared of Broad and played some comical wafts.

Sidebottom just shows that you just need to pitch it on a good length and keep the batsmen playing to succeed at Test level. He is a fine bowler, most batsman who face him seem to have never seen an inswinger off a left armer before and his bouncer is also not too shabby. In my opinion, all he lacks is an outswinger, something which will allow him to setup world class batsmen; a step up from the bullying of New Zealand (in seaming conditions) and the West Indies as he has in the past.

Sidebottom has noted in the past that he sat in the 80mph area in County Cricket simply due to the amount of cricket being played in quick succession. Consequently, a talent like Sidebottom is not allowed to gain wickets via consistency, with as much success due to the reduced pace. Perhaps the ECB can look at such an example and try to reduce the schedule, we do not know how many Sidebottoms are toiling away in County Cricket without recognition.

Good to see Strauss in the runs but what on earth was Vaughan doing?!

 

[cheese]

Being eloquent and polite doth not maketh a legend. Lara certainly wasn’t – he was aloof and arrogant. Tendulkar is but the defining characteristic is ruthlessness and there is little proof – yet – that he has this.

Ruthlessness comes from experience. Nobody steps into international cricket being ruthless to start with. Legends are not born, they are made.

Just because a legend says something doesn’t make it fact. Botham makes a lot of statements buy they are, more often than not, reactionary rubbish.

Dennis Lillee and Hadlee are bowling greats. When bowling greats see potential in a bowler because he exhibits similar actions to them, you take notice of the comments. Ian Botham would qualify as someone who praises another all rounder that plays like him. Doesn't mean it necessary is true, you're right, but it's not rubbish either. Unless you claim you're an expert in judging their comments.

Oh I agree, but this doesn’t mean he’ll be any good. I mean look at Vettori’s averages – over 30. Hardly amazing stuff, though he is a good player.

Vettori, as a spinner, is only 1/2 way through his career. Sure, he's not setting the world on fire with his spinners at the moment, but he's not number 1 bowler in ODI stakes for nothing.

No, a legend (in cricketing terms) is a player that bowls or bats extraordinarily well over a prolonged period of time while also doing so with considerable flourish. Legends have an innate skill that is of a higher level than their contemporaries. Obviously they need to work at it, but they are at a higher level in the first place.

A player who bowls and bats extraordinarily well DO NOT get there because of innate talent only. They work extra hard (to the point of obsession), watch pioneers of cricket series from BBC when they do interviews with Murali, Akram, Waqar, Warne... They will all say the same thing. WORK HARD at your craft. They don't get to that higher place simply by being who they are. Hadlee is inconsistent at the start of his test career. Geniuses are not born, they work at it, and when talents that have the potential to be legends start behaving like a spoilt "I belong here" player, they stop becoming greats. You can argue that Lara is alouf and arrogant, but it doesn't mean he didn't work hard to be where he is. It also mean that while you're young and talented, you also need the right people there to guide your young career. No legends come around (aside from Bradman) thinking they will dictate the game when they started.

Talents stop becoming legends when they 1. can't recover from the pressure 2. didn't have an Imran Khan type mentor 3. Goes on a booze, drugs abuse to the point of affecting their performances on the field.

If you can get past 1 -3 conditions, you are well on your way to being good at your craft consistently. Many talents you can argue in West Indies are wasted because they do not have a mentor, hence the disintegration of the cricket. Ambrose is the last great bowler because of the legacy of the 80s, but he didn't pass it on to the next lot like what he got when he started. (for exmaple) Imagine where Wasim and Waqar would be today if it weren't for Imran's guidance. Probably just another 'good' bowler not carrying on to be legends.

 

[Sureshot]

I'm not convinced this is the batting paradise everyone thought it was/thinks it is.

Changed your mind yet? Fleming thinks it's a batting paradise. How agrees. All their shots pretty much are coming straight off the middle of the bat and are being timed with perfection. Most of England's dismissals came from TERRIBLE batting (and so did our only one) or else some pretty impressive, accurate bowling which would get wickets on almost any pitch.

No I haven't changed my mind This isn't a batting paradise. It's not a 168 all out pitch mind. I think 350 would have been a good score batting first. There is swing and the bounce is fairly strong.

It's been a bowler dominated series this one, most notably by Sidebottom, 22 wickets in this series (might be 23). He's quite simply fantastic.

 

[barmyarmy]

I'd forgotten about Franklin - he's another bowler who seems to do well against England.
Thinking back to summer 2004/5 and before, we weren't scraping through against sides like NZ and WI, we were crushing them by an innings and clean-sweeping the series. The NZ team is an average side hit by injuries and there is no way England should have found themselves in the position that they did.
Yes, I'm confident we'll win from here but we're looking at a crushing home defeat by SA unless we really raise our game.