England National football team thread

[Skater]

I think, as a nation, we have to accept where we are. Like Liverpool and Leeds fans have had to (and struggled) to do. England is not one of top nations, it hasn't been for a long time and unless we accept that we are never going to do anything about it. Just because we came up with a set of rules for the game 150 years ago does not give us any right to be winning World Cups or Euros.

Before we start criticising the foreigners in the Premier League again, I think we need to go back to the grassroots and, quite simply, make the pitches kids play on smaller. That would instantly get rid of the long ball nature of the English game as it wouldn't work on a tiny pitch, and kids would grow up playing the game forced to play a game of pass and move. After we've done that, we can look at other issues.

One other thought in terms of players. Chelsea last week signed Marco van Ginkel, a really exciting Dutch player who has just been playing at the U21 Euros. Do you think an English player as talented as that would have been at the U21 Euros? Of course not, he'd have been in the senior squad for the friendly in Brazil.

 

[MasterBlaster76]

I think, as a nation, we have to accept where we are. Like Liverpool and Leeds fans have had to (and struggled) to do. England is not one of top nations, it hasn't been for a long time and unless we accept that we are never going to do anything about it. Just because we came up with a set of rules for the game 150 years ago does not give us any right to be winning World Cups or Euros.

Before we start criticising the foreigners in the Premier League again, I think we need to go back to the grassroots and, quite simply, make the pitches kids play on smaller. That would instantly get rid of the long ball nature of the English game as it wouldn't work on a tiny pitch, and kids would grow up playing the game forced to play a game of pass and move. After we've done that, we can look at other issues.

One other thought in terms of players. Chelsea last week signed Marco van Ginkel, a really exciting Dutch player who has just been playing at the U21 Euros. Do you think an English player as talented as that would have been at the U21 Euros? Of course not, he'd have been in the senior squad for the friendly in Brazil.

That of course is another part of the problem; we're setting ourselves up for men vs boys at U21 before we even start!

The foreigners are not the root cause of the problem, but they are part of it. Any league where almost 70% of the players are foreign - that just doesn't sound right. Agreed so much about the smaller pitches!!!

We're not a top nation and yes, we haven't been for a long time but at least before we were knocking on the door. We were giving the 'top' teams a real good game. Now? We get badly found out. Things have definitely got worse since the mid nineties - back then, I reckon we were on the verge of becoming a top International team. I wonder what went so, so wrong.

 

[MasterBlaster76]

According to Red Nev, our Youth Academies - our very grass roots - are now being flooded with foreign recruits and that English football has reached a 'tipping point'. Dire news indeed if he is right - it explains the lack of decent English players coming through.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - along with an overall foreigner cap, we need to ban our clubs from picking up foreigners at 16 or 17 years old!

Of course, it won't happen; the Premiership couldn't care less about England.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

why don't young english players make it in other leagues? how come a young player in spain, like alacantra, gets pushed out because of lack of opportunities and then finds himself as the subject of a bidding war between european clubs but in england everyone just goes to play in liverpool's reserves?

I think you have to blame the players a bit, ok so there is a lack of opportunities in the international all-star EPL, there are like dozens of other leagues and teams to play for across europe.

 

[MasterBlaster76]

why don't young english players make it in other leagues? how come a young player in spain, like alacantra, gets pushed out because of lack of opportunities and then finds himself as the subject of a bidding war between european clubs but in england everyone just goes to play in liverpool's reserves?

I think you have to blame the players a bit, ok so there is a lack of opportunities in the international all-star EPL, there are like dozens of other leagues and teams to play for across europe.

Of course the players are to blame a bit, but if the very academies are now being flooded with foreign players, who already have superior technique ingrained into their game - what chance do they have? Surely the whole point of a nation's academies is to nurture their own future internationals, not to babysit everyone else's players to the detriment of their own?

 

[Epic]

I don't see your logic here Steve, you seem to agree that the young English players today are technically inferior to their Spanish/German/Italian counterparts, but you also seem to suggest that the league protect them anyway through foreign caps and what not... how exactly is more Championship level talent taking part in the Premier League going to help the national team win things?

 

[Bevab]

I don't see your logic here Steve, you seem to agree that the young English players are technically inferior to their Spanish/German/Italian counterparts, but you also seem to suggest that the league protect them anyway through foreign caps and what not... how exactly is more Championship level talent taking part in the Premier League going to help the national team win things?

This.

Your argument seems a bit contradictory. It's the grassroots coaching that has to improve considering what I know. And, more Englishmen should move abroad obviously.

 

[MasterBlaster76]

I don't see your logic here Steve, you seem to agree that the young English players today are technically inferior to their Spanish/German/Italian counterparts, but you also seem to suggest that the league protect them anyway through foreign caps and what not... how exactly is more Championship level talent taking part in the Premier League going to help the national team win things?

Well.... England have sod-all chance of winning things if the Academies are now just babysitting everyone else's footballers instead of trying to bring through English players. The only way a footballer can improve is to play matches - training is great and all that, but without actual match experience, what chance do they have?

And remember - it's not just me calling for foreigner caps. I'm just a lowly football fan - no: the people you should be listening to are those high up in the game talking about it; they know more than me and you combined.

I just don't want the Premiership to lose all identity of being English. Did you hear what they said about Swansea? Apparently they have seven Spaniards in the squad and the manager is worried about them losing their Welsh identity. A few years back we had 38% English players. Now, we probably have even less - how is the England National team meant to have any future if the number of English players continues to decrease? That is why we need a foreigner cap.

Obviously, a lot of work has to be done at the coaching level - the Academies and the level below that as well - but like Red Nev, I can see a 'tipping point' - a point of no return for the English National team. Once that point is reached, we might as well disband the England team. With all due respect, neither of you are English (from what I can see), so you're not likely to be as passionate about this as I am. All my life, I've seen England fail - but usually not without having a damn good go first, and coming very close on numerous occasions. Now, England just fail - period.

When the 'foreign invasion' first started, the players coming over were Cantona, Zola, Ginola, Bergkamp, Klinsmann - absolute world class players from whom our young players could learn a lot. What are they going to learn from some middle of the road guy from Slovenia or somewhere? What are they going to learn from players who are the same age as them, with the added handicap not being used to the country or its culture and in some cases, being homesick?

 

[Epic]

Well.... England have sod-all chance of winning things if the Academies are now just babysitting everyone else's footballers instead of trying to bring through English players. The only way a footballer can improve is to play matches - training is great and all that, but without actual match experience, what chance do they have?

The clubs that do this neither are the problem nor provide the solution because it's a small minority, and its not them refusing to or not trying to bring through English players, it's just that the average 16 year old Belgian today is miles ahead of one of their own.

And remember - it's not just me calling for foreigner caps. I'm just a lowly football fan - no: the people you should be listening to are those high up in the game talking about it; they know more than me and you combined.

The same people higher up in the game who are responsible for this mess in the first place? Yeah, lets listen to them.

I just don't want the Premiership to lose all identity of being English. Did you hear what they said about Swansea? Apparently they have seven Spaniards in the squad and the manager is worried about them losing their Welsh identity. A few years back we had 38% English players. Now, we probably have even less - how is the England National team meant to have any future if the number of English players continues to decrease? That is why we need a foreigner cap.

Ever checked how many percentage of players in the Championship are homegrown? I haven't, but it seems like loads to me, and our answer might just be right there...

Obviously, a lot of work has to be done at the coaching level - the Academies and the level below that as well - but like Red Nev, I can see a 'tipping point' - a point of no return for the English National team. Once that point is reached, we might as well disband the England team. With all due respect, neither of you are English (from what I can see), so you're not likely to be as passionate about this as I am. All my life, I've seen England fail - but usually not without having a damn good go first, and coming very close on numerous occasions. Now, England just fail - period.

There's no such thing, this is very much fixable, but the sad part is that everyone higher up seems to be sold on this notion that a foreigners cap would somehow fix the problem, it's not, more English players taking part in the Premier League might give you a nice homegrown percentage, but the players and the national team for that matter would remain bad.

When the 'foreign invasion' first started, the players coming over were Cantona, Zola, Ginola, Bergkamp, Klinsmann - absolute world class players from whom our young players could learn a lot. What are they going to learn from some middle of the road guy from Slovenia or somewhere? What are they going to learn from players who are the same age as them, with the added handicap not being used to the country or its culture and in some cases, being homesick?

I'm sure the Cantona's, the Zola's, the Ginola's, the Bergkamp's and the Klinsmann's didn't get where they did talking to a few world class players, no, they got where they did because natural talent and superior coaching.

 

[War]

why don't young english players make it in other leagues? how come a young player in spain, like alacantra, gets pushed out because of lack of opportunities and then finds himself as the subject of a bidding war between european clubs but in england everyone just goes to play in liverpool's reserves?

I think you have to blame the players a bit, ok so there is a lack of opportunities in the international all-star EPL, there are like dozens of other leagues and teams to play for across europe.

Yes in a perfect world ENG players should have played abroad more often. But they don't go abroad because of the fact that the premier league pays so well even if you on the bench.

We have a situation recently where i read spaniards complaining that liga liga (unless is barca, real and a few others) isn't paying players - which is why for example a player like Michu had to go Swansea and why Navas is now at City.

 

[MasterBlaster76]

The same people higher up in the game who are responsible for this mess in the first place? Yeah, lets listen to them.

I'm not talking about the twats at the FA. I'm talking about people who probably should be involved in the FA, like Glen Hoddle, like Gary Neville - not the yes men that the FA want to employ. We need people to shake the whole thing up! A good start would be Hoddle being instated as the U21 England manager - with a view to eventually taking over the senior side.

Ever checked how many percentage of players in the Championship are homegrown? I haven't, but it seems like loads to me, and our answer might just be right there...

Play the Championship players? You might be on to something there; at least they'll play for each other as a team, rather than act like a bunch of individual prima donnas, and let's be honest: could they really do that much worse than the England players we have now? Don't forget, there are some decent players in the Championship. Maybe now is the time to actually try something radical like that. Let's face it, right now not only are the England team behind Spain, Germany et al technically, they're also behind in the team spirit stakes - another worrying development because if England teams that I've seen have anything going for them, it's team spirit.

Of course, it won't ever happen: England and the FA don't do radical experimentation.

Edit: Even when we play what you'd call an 'England B', they always seem to go out there and give it a better go than the so-called senior players!

There's no such thing, this is very much fixable, but the sad part is that everyone higher up seems to be sold on this notion that a foreigners cap would somehow fix the problem, it's not, more English players taking part in the Premier League might give you a nice homegrown percentage, but the players and the national team for that matter would remain bad.

It's not a quick fix; not by any stretch, but surely it must help? Surely having the players out there on the pitch can only benefit the England team long term?

I'm sure the Cantona's, the Zola's, the Ginola's, the Bergkamp's and the Klinsmann's didn't get where they did talking to a few world class players, no, they got where they did because natural talent and superior coaching.

Of course they didn't - I'm not saying having a chat with a world class player can wave a magic wand over you. But having said that, playing with and against such players can't hurt.

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Yes in a perfect world ENG players should have played abroad more often. But they don't go abroad because of the fact that the premier league pays so well even if you on the bench.

We have a situation recently where i read spaniards complaining that liga liga (unless is barca, real and a few others) isn't paying players - which is why for example a player like Michu had to go Swansea and why Navas is now at City.

Good point you made there.

 

[War]

Premier League transfers reveal how far English football has fallen | Mail Online

 

[MasterBlaster76]

Premier League transfers reveal how far English football has fallen | Mail Online

Exactly - you've only got to look at the transfer news on digital text every day - every day, another foreigner has been signed. I'd really love to know the percentage of English players actually in the Premier league now, because I'm sure it's fallen below 38%.

 

[Skater]

I remember Norwich were being held up as an example of the English still doing well in the Premier League, and this summer we've signed 2 Englishmen, a Spaniard, a Swede and 2 Dutchmen!

 

[MasterBlaster76]

I remember Norwich were being held up as an example of the English still doing well in the Premier League, and this summer we've signed 2 Englishmen, a Spaniard, a Swede and 2 Dutchmen!

Which is a concern, especially given the prospects in your Youth Academy. I hope they get their chance, because there are some decent players coming through there.