England National football team thread

[MasterBlaster76]

England U19s beat France 2-1 and have avoided a Semi final with Spain. So if we can negotiate Greece, we actually get a shot at winning something - albeit at U19 level.

 

[puddleduck]

I keep saying it, but we instigated massive setups to change the way we play football in the late 90's. Those young players will only now be starting to come forward, so the clamour to change everything was somewhat over the top Obviously a lot of changes are needed, but players that were brought through by the old setups were never going to show the new skillsets the next generation should be bringing through.

 

[Auwais]

They're clearly a big threat from a physical point of view, in the lower age groups.

But at the highest level, you need a lot more than that to be successful. Athleticism will only get you so far.

 

[MasterBlaster76]

They're clearly a big threat from a physical point of view, in the lower age groups.

But at the highest level, you need a lot more than that to be successful. Athleticism will only get you so far.

Yep. Even with the England U19s, I kept hearing how much better the other lot were at keeping the ball.

 

[War]

BBC News - John Terry racism trial: Ashley Cole defends teammate

Ashley Cole: John Terry should not be in court - ESPN Soccernet

God i really hate how this trial is going now.

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Hmmm, yes - I'd forgotten about the Scholes thing. That was something he most certainly didn't do well. I mean, Scholesy was never going to be a winger was he? He just didn't have the pace for it - he was wasted on the left.

Ye man, it irks me still today, forced such a wonderful player into international retirement.

In 20 years time when i look back at this era of EURO 2000 - EURO 2012, English football players, it will always be one of utter frustration and lost opportunity.

 

[puddleduck]

I'm with you there dude. The guy should have been our lynchpin up until a few years back. As Pirlo up to 33 has been for Italy... instead we ended up with "shoot from everywhere Lampard" and "hit 50 yard diagonal passes all the time Gerrard" both constantly looking for the instant reward... and they wondered why it never worked

 

[MasterBlaster76]

Yep. Too bloody late now, eh? Next time we get a Scholes, let's make sure we build the team around him? Unfortunately, none of us have a say in running or picking the England team.

Which reminds me - today at 14:45 on Eurosport UK (411 Sky), we have England v Greece in the U19 Euro Semi final.

 

[Ahmad94]

So Giggs is the captain for GB. Didn't even know the football was in the Olympics

 

[Auwais]

Football has been in the Olympics for the past 100 years, barring the odd exception. It preceded the creation of the World Cup.

Wonder if this will be the time that Brazil finally break their surprising duck in terms of never winning a gold medal in football at the Olympics.

 

[War]

I'm with you there dude. The guy should have been our lynchpin up until a few years back. As Pirlo up to 33 has been for Italy... instead we ended up with "shoot from everywhere Lampard" and "hit 50 yard diagonal passes all the time Gerrard" both constantly looking for the instant reward... and they wondered why it never worked

Ye as we have discussed on previous pages - its all down to the culture of English football. Highly technical players of Scholes ilk, Le Tissier, Hoddle and Waddle before him - just were not as appreciated in the English culture like the robust type players.

Xavi a couple years ago described it best, when he rated Scholes as the best mid-fielder of the last 20 years:

Xavi interview: Paul Scholes is the best midfielder in last 20 years | Mail Online

Paul Scholes receives special praise: ?In the last 15 to 20 years the best central midfielder that I have seen ? the most complete ? is Scholes. I have spoken with Xabi Alonso about this many times. Scholes is a spectacular player who has everything.

?He can play the final pass, he can score, he is strong, he never gets knocked off the ball and he doesn?t give possession away. If he had been Spanish then maybe he would have been valued more.?

Xavi won the World Cup aged 30, one year older than Scholes when he retired from international football feeling undervalued by the then England coach Sven Goran Eriksson.

So why is the pass master, so revered in Spain, often discarded in England? For Xavi it starts in the stands with the difference between English and Spanish football culture.

?You are a nation of warriors,? he says. ?If I go to Liverpool?s ground and someone puts the ball into the area and Carragher hammers it out of play then the fans applaud. In the Nou Camp you would never be applauded for that.

Read more: Xavi interview: Paul Scholes is the best midfielder in last 20 years | Mail Online

The funny this is still - i reckon if i sit down and think of the best England XI and 23-man squad of my time of watching football since Euro 96 - it would be a top-class team filled with highly technical players

GK: David Seman, Joe Hart, Nigel Martyn

DEF: Tony Adams (c), Rio Ferdinand, Sol Campbell, John Terry, Ash Cole, Gary Neville, Graeme Le Saux, Lee Dixon

MID: Paul Scholes, Paul Gascogine, Steven Gerrard, Paul Ince, Frank Lampard/Matt Le Tissier, David Beckham, Joe Cole, Steve McManaman, Owen Hargreaves

STR: Shearer, Owen, Rooney

------------------------------Seaman----------------------------

Neville----------------Adams------------Ferdinand----------A Cole

-----------Ince--------------Scholes----------Gerrard-------------

-----------------------------Gascoigne---------------------------

--------------------Shearer--------------Rooney------------------

 

[shravi]

I don't know why you always sell Gerrard's game so short, puddleduck. He's a world class player and one of the best players of his generation at what he does. He almost single-handedly got England out of that group. He hasn't always shown up for England but those 50 yard passes you're talking about are usually only attempted when he's frustrated with the rest of the team for not being able to take a pass or not being available for one. So he tries to create something out of nothing. Plus, there's no reason why Gerrard couldn't have played with Scholes. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

I think what you might be trying to say is that a poor version of Gerrard is always going to be worse than a poor version of Scholes because Gerrard's game has a lot more room for error than Scholes' and so the young players coming through really have to be a top-notch player to emulate Stevie G.

 

[MasterBlaster76]

Yep. Too bloody late now, eh? Next time we get a Scholes, let's make sure we build the team around him? Unfortunately, none of us have a say in running or picking the England team.

Which reminds me - today at 14:45 on Eurosport UK (411 Sky), we have England v Greece in the U19 Euro Semi final.

Somehow, we managed to lose in Extra Time. We had 20+ shots on their goal, but only one went in - still, that's a world away from the senior England team. I reckon these U19s would probably do better if thrown in at the deep end!

Agreed about Gerrard - he's a great player with a good range of passing (not close to Scholes' level, but still worth having in the team). The problem is, it shouldn't have been Gerrard and Lampard, it should've been Gerrard and Scholes! I mean, why shunt your best passer out on the wing, it doesn't make any sense! Xavi says it all when he says that Scholes is the best midfielder of the past twenty years. Not just in England - in the whole bloody world - and we played him on the sodding wing! As Xavi says, he would've been better valued as a Spanish player.

We need a complete cultural overhaul of football in this country. Even the U19s I mentioned, they still gave the ball away far too much - and that was what lead to the Greek goal.

One other thing: Man Utd saw that our midfield wasn't up to much, so they bought back in the best passer we have. England could also surely see our midfield wasn't up to much but - for a much fewer number of games - they didn't see fit to bring back our best passer. International football, especially the slow pace that it's rapidly heading towards now if teams want to win anything in the next ten years that is, suits Scholes down to the ground, even now. Yet we left him at home. .

Xavi won the World Cup aged 30, one year older than Scholes when he retired from international football feeling undervalued by the then England coach Sven Goran Eriksson.

So why is the pass master, so revered in Spain, often discarded in England? For Xavi it starts in the stands with the difference between English and Spanish football culture.

What more needs to be said????

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

this comment is also particularly interesting to me

If he had been Spanish then maybe he would have been valued more.?

but not because I think spanish people value a different skill set to english fans.

I think there is a tendency for brits to view themselves with suspicion when it comes to the football. perhaps only ever been comfortable with the idea of the flawed talent, or gritty triers.

you even wonder if this is another reason teams tend to look abroad for talent, perhaps not entirely comfortable having important positions occupied by british players. The striker and playmaker roles are usually filled by players from overseas, rooney is the exception, but beyond that most teams prefer the more exotic options in these positions.

I wonder if it even extends to their attitude to managers, barcelona promoted their number 2, milan, juventus, napoli, I think most pig italian teams, tend to go for someone that's proven themselves with a smaller team within the league. david moyes as done remarkable things for years for everton yet never came into real contention for a top job.

liverpool bucked the trend recently, there's always one offs but I think it happens more generally english teams like the idea of the foreign, potential superstar than the grafter they're familiar with.

and to be honest, how often is that the fans fault? whenever a team needs someone fans will clamber over each other calling for Hulk, Hazard, Neymar etc etc. most of the time they've never even seen them play, they've just heard of them, maybe seen a youtube clip or two, and they like the idea of some brazilian playing well and convince themselves he's the man.

 

[puddleduck]

Don't get me wrong Shravi, Gerrard is quality... but in Spain he'd have been a holding midfielder, probably one of the best, who wins the ball, can release players and has the potential to smash home from outside the box. In England he was one of the top players every year. The reality is, that Xabi Alonso was massively underated when he was at Liverpool, and Gerrard got given pretty much all Xabi's praise... until he left and the whole of Liverpool suddenly realised what had just happened heh

 

[Themer]

I think most pig italian teams, tend to go for someone that's proven themselves with a smaller team within the league

Is that why so many former Bolton players are linked to jobs in Italy?