India in England Jun-Sept 2014

[War]

Like JP Duminy for S Africa, England have a potentially good spin-bowling all-rounder option in Ali - until a legitimate proper test spinner emerges from the county circuit.

 

[aditya123]

Awful! That's all I can say. Brings back memories of that disastrous 2011 tour. We are not this bad, to be losing to England by 266 runs. The problem is, Indian cricket and the direction it is going in right now, there have to rely on some "out of the blue" wins (like the one at Lord's) and feel happy about it. They are not going to change the captain until he quits, they have such an awful coach that nobody cares anymore about him these days. The entire management has been a laughing stock and yet, these guys continue to be backed by the head honchos.

And people like me, Adi are called pessimistic. How do you expect us to be optimistic when we have to follow a team like this backed by a board like the BCCI?

Nothing will change unless Dhoni steps down as the test captain. Its come to a point where his ego is coming to the fore and is detrimental to the side. There was no reason any logic would suggest for Jadeja being picked over Ashwin. Similarly, I fail to understand how Umesh Yadav is`nt even in the fray for the test side, especially after the promise he showed in the limited chances he got. Yet, Pankaj Singh and Stuart Binny are choices for the test squad. We might see Dhoni dropping one of the seamers for Ashwin to further damage the balance of the side. We can do with just a lone spinner, just not Jadeja as the lone spinner. On the other hand, with Ishant gone, the seam department needs more cushion and thus Rohit has to pave way for Aaron preferably.

Its all back to square one now. I would be happy if we manage to draw one of the remaining two tests. English fans might say we are overly pessimistic but its a fact. We have the most defensive think tank in world cricket led by the most defensive captain who is clueless in non-Asian conditions. His 'gut feel' which works in India is horrible overseas. He defends at times he should`nt, making it comfortable for the opposition. Monty Panesar, Shaun Udal and now Moeen Ali. We have made a habit of giving bucket a load of wickets to average English spinners. This is almost like the English tour to India in 2012. A thumping win for India to start and then a total reversal to follow.

 

[asprin]

After the Lord's test, it was English fans who were fuming and it's the turn of the Indian fans now. The scary part about the home team is that all their batsman (well except Robson) have had runs under their belt and that could only make things worse for India.

It's really, really frustrating to see the same story being repeated each and every time. Honestly, I'd be very surprised if the scoreline read even 2-1 in favor of England at the end of the series. Goes to prove how much the England team gift-wrapped the win at Lords.

I had said that England were still a very good side even after the Ashes debacle and my predictions seem to be coming true w.r.t to the series result. Our mediocre bowling + fragile batting + being the away team will never put India as favorites in overseas tours until and unless we find at least 2 quality bowlers who can take wickets on any surface.

 

[ParkedTheBus]

Yet, Pankaj Singh and Stuart Binny are choices for the test squad

I have to disagree with the Pankaj part. Yes, he had a bad debut, but he could have easily had 2 wickets at the end of the first day had luck worked in his favor. He has been the best bowler in Ranji for some seasons now, and we have to stick with him. He seems like a confidence player, so dropping him after just one test will do nothing but worsen it. I'd say give him one more test, then we can make a judgement.

 

[used2bcool]

Full credit to England, they were thoroughly deserving winners. We've played a hideous game, and it might be the catalyst to see some heads roll. I don't think Dhawan's second innings is enough to save him, and there's no real reason not to play Ashwin anymore. I think Pankaj gets another chance - he bowled well in spots and was unlucky in the first innings, and more importantly because Ishant is still out and we don't have anyone else. I have absolutely zero confidence in Varun Aaron's control over the course of a Test, so I wouldn't play him, even as a surprise element. Depending on the pitch, Ashwin can come in to replace Sharma (if we need five bowlers), Jadeja (if we're playing just one spinner), or Shami (because he's been terrible) if we want to play two spinners.

I don't really get this school of thought that all of India's overseas problems will suddenly disappear if we remove Dhoni/Fletcher. I'm not defending those two, they're cluelessly lucky at best and actively harmful at worst, but I'm not sure how a new captain/coach can win in overseas conditions with the talent we have at hand. We just introduced a new crop of players, and it's becoming clear that a lot of the old weaknesses, including shitty fielding, still persist. A new captain/coach can't teach talent, and they can't teach athleticism, two things our players lack to be consistently successful outside the subcontinent. Aggressive tactics may help us compete a little more, but I'm convinced we don't have the talent base required to prosper overseas.

That said, we're not this bad. Hopefully this was a nice kick up the ass for our cricketers, and they can come back fired up for the next Test. I believe the Anderson hearing is tomorrow, and if that goes our way, then our players will be geed up even more. So here's to hoping for a competitive fourth Test, though I think England start as favorites at Old Trafford.

 

[greymatter776]

Pankaj was good,he bowled good spells except the last one of first innings when he looked rather tired.The only problem he faced was the fielding lapses and Umpiring mistakes.With Ishant not fit for the next test,Pankaj would play 4th test also.Only the problem is whether to put Rohit in the next game or not.Rohit's Offbreak is do handy but his batting looks off and his offbreaks doesn't look too promising to keep him in the squad,but bringing Binny would do no good as well,so let the management take the decision.The opening doesn't looks good for India as well.Vijay is good but Dhawan cant make the most of his opportunities.But bringing in Gambhir is not a great solution because a struggling youngster is much better than a struggling senior if India is looking for a future investment with this tour.

 

[SaiSrini]

Full credit to England, they were thoroughly deserving winners. We've played a hideous game, and it might be the catalyst to see some heads roll. I don't think Dhawan's second innings is enough to save him, and there's no real reason not to play Ashwin anymore. I think Pankaj gets another chance - he bowled well in spots and was unlucky in the first innings, and more importantly because Ishant is still out and we don't have anyone else. I have absolutely zero confidence in Varun Aaron's control over the course of a Test, so I wouldn't play him, even as a surprise element. Depending on the pitch, Ashwin can come in to replace Sharma (if we need five bowlers), Jadeja (if we're playing just one spinner), or Shami (because he's been terrible) if we want to play two spinners.

I don't really get this school of thought that all of India's overseas problems will suddenly disappear if we remove Dhoni/Fletcher. I'm not defending those two, they're cluelessly lucky at best and actively harmful at worst, but I'm not sure how a new captain/coach can win in overseas conditions with the talent we have at hand. We just introduced a new crop of players, and it's becoming clear that a lot of the old weaknesses, including shitty fielding, still persist. A new captain/coach can't teach talent, and they can't teach athleticism, two things our players lack to be consistently successful outside the subcontinent. Aggressive tactics may help us compete a little more, but I'm convinced we don't have the talent base required to prosper overseas.

That said, we're not this bad. Hopefully this was a nice kick up the ass for our cricketers, and they can come back fired up for the next Test. I believe the Anderson hearing is tomorrow, and if that goes our way, then our players will be geed up even more. So here's to hoping for a competitive fourth Test, though I think England start as favorites at Old Trafford.

Who said we dont have the talent? We need to pick/give opportunities to the right talent. Keeping fast bowlers like Yadav and Aaron away from the XI is not going to help at all. You need some genuine/raw pace bowlers in the side. With proper team selections, we can continue to be more than a competitive side overseas. Dhoni's selections have been downright pathetic, and I am also agreeing with Adi that his ego is now coming to the forefront. He has had a few instances in the past where his decisions have clicked against popular perception. So now, he just makes his decisions thinking that they will end up working against the popular perception, but they are not right now. Logical decisions might still go wrong, but the probability of a logical decision working vs the chances of a gamble working are pretty high.

Even now, he is defending his 4-bowler move, saying that he didn't use Binny enough anyways in Trent Bridge/Lords and therefore India were technically playing only 4 bowlers in Lord's.

 

[SaiSrini]

Pankaj was good,he bowled good spells except the last one of first innings when he looked rather tired.The only problem he faced was the fielding lapses and Umpiring mistakes.With Ishant not fit for the next test,Pankaj would play 4th test also.Only the problem is whether to put Rohit in the next game or not.Rohit's Offbreak is do handy but his batting looks off and his offbreaks doesn't look too promising to keep him in the squad,but bringing Binny would do no good as well,so let the management take the decision.The opening doesn't looks good for India as well.Vijay is good but Dhawan cant make the most of his opportunities.But bringing in Gambhir is not a great solution because a struggling youngster is much better than a struggling senior if India is looking for a future investment with this tour.

Generally after such crushing defeats, you need to make more changes than that. I would bring in fresher legs now. Shami has to be dropped. Aaron for Shami. I would keep Kumar for his allround capabilities. Pankaj Singh will probably continue for the fact that he was unlucky in this test. Gambhir in for Dhawan as Dhawan doesn't seem to learn quick enough from his mistakes. Ashwin in for Rohit (which going by Dhoni's words after the test, is not very likely).

 

[used2bcool]

Who said we dont have the talent? We need to pick/give opportunities to the right talent. Keeping fast bowlers like Yadav and Aaron away from the XI is not going to help at all. You need some genuine/raw pace bowlers in the side. With proper team selections, we can continue to be more than a competitive side overseas.

Come on Sai, our bowling just isn't there. It's not world class. It might win a match or two, but it can't win consistently. An attack of Bhuvneshwar, Shami, Jadeja/Ashwin, and Pankaj/Ishant/whoever would not scare any County side in England. I agree that Umesh Yadav should at least have been on tour, but I don't have any confidence in Varun Aaron, who apart from being a bowler with average cricket intelligence and mediocre control, is also an atrociously bad fielder. Who's there in the domestic circuit that you'd rather have? The cupboard isn't stacked anyway, and what's there is mediocre at best.

 

[Satan666]

Who said we dont have the talent? We need to pick/give opportunities to the right talent. Keeping fast bowlers like Yadav and Aaron away from the XI is not going to help at all. You need some genuine/raw pace bowlers in the side. With proper team selections, we can continue to be more than a competitive side overseas. Dhoni's selections have been downright pathetic, and I am also agreeing with Adi that his ego is now coming to the forefront. He has had a few instances in the past where his decisions have clicked against popular perception. So now, he just makes his decisions thinking that they will end up working against the popular perception, but they are not right now. Logical decisions might still go wrong, but the probability of a logical decision working vs the chances of a gamble working are pretty high.

Even now, he is defending his 4-bowler move, saying that he didn't use Binny enough anyways in Trent Bridge/Lords and therefore India were technically playing only 4 bowlers in Lord's.

At present the bowling unit in England is the best, missing only Harbhajan and perhaps Zaheer. Yadav and Aaron are a cut below Shami. The batting unit is at its weakest I have ever seen, Sehwag, Gambhir and Agarwal are the replacements for Pujara, Vijay and Dhawan. Sirji's too much of a celebrity to be dropped, he is ROCKSTAR! On a serious note I prefer Jadeja ahead of Ashwin anyday.

 

[cricket_icon]

After the Lord's test, it was English fans who were fuming and it's the turn of the Indian fans now. The scary part about the home team is that all their batsman (well except Robson) have had runs under their belt and that could only make things worse for India.

It's really, really frustrating to see the same story being repeated each and every time. Honestly, I'd be very surprised if the scoreline read even 2-1 in favor of England at the end of the series. Goes to prove how much the England team gift-wrapped the win at Lords.

I had said that England were still a very good side even after the Ashes debacle and my predictions seem to be coming true w.r.t to the series result. Our mediocre bowling + fragile batting + being the away team will never put India as favorites in overseas tours until and unless we find at least 2 quality bowlers who can take wickets on any surface.

Yeah, England were never a bad side but they needed some re-invigoration and have found it with Root, Ballance, Ali and greatly with Buttler. This is a group of young players England must stick with, they have the making of something special.

Just get Finn back into form and physically fit because Jordan doesn't cut it for me and never has.

My only issue is Anderson and the fact that he may be banned, which severely depletes England's pace bowling ability.

 

[grkrama]

Come on Sai, our bowling just isn't there. It's not world class. It might win a match or two, but it can't win consistently. An attack of Bhuvneshwar, Shami, Jadeja/Ashwin, and Pankaj/Ishant/whoever would not scare any County side in England. I agree that Umesh Yadav should at least have been on tour, but I don't have any confidence in Varun Aaron, who apart from being a bowler with average cricket intelligence and mediocre control, is also an atrociously bad fielder. Who's there in the domestic circuit that you'd rather have? The cupboard isn't stacked anyway, and what's there is mediocre at best.

you dont need great talents always to win, but using the best vailable will always help in match situations.

It was moeen ali's six wickets that helped eng win, he is not a great spinner. Same way the changes Sai has mentioned are some of the most ideal and logical changes that will help you grab the few crucial wins, we are going to win everything at home, outside we have a decent fighting batting lineup despite that collapse we had now, and if we can have those right combination of bowlers according to situations we may just end up with a few good wins overseas when we are in the front in the matches. The yadav aaron , ashwn may not turn the world over and blow the opposition but using these people wisely and rotating them according to match conditions and their form will help a long way in getting a few overseas wins.Not to mention the serious spin talents that india is always hailed about has been ignored in the form of ojha and mishra.They may not have the batting abilities of sirji or ashwin but they can make up for it by knocking of a few more batsman of the opposition than jadeja.

Tbh Ashwin is better suited for a test allrounder role, jadeja as much as i like him for his theatrics and xfactor he cant impact many tests, in that regard ashwin can be a much better batsman, someone who can actually grind it out in tests also a better bowler than jadeja.

whn you have this cushion we can get some really good bowling combos getting a more genuine spinner like mishra or ojha or an extra seamer depending on conditions.

MSD's interview that he doesnt make use of 5th bowler for more than 8-10 overs made me cringe, you cant bowl the 4 bowlers to dust which is what he keeps doing, you need to use them in effective bursts, which is were a 5th bowler if its someone like Ashwin will be more than handy.





[DOUBLEPOST=1406859716][/DOUBLEPOST]Shami is certainly the best bowler in the indian side, but right now he is burnt up to dust, resting him now will make sure we dont make a irfan pathan of him.

 

[asprin]

you dont need great talents always to win, but using the best vailable will always help in match situations

I'm with used2bcool here. We might win a test in a series occasionally, but there won't be any consistency. I also agree 100% with him w.r.t our bowlers being non-threatening even for the County sides.

Our problem isn't the batting (even though it might seem like it). We are crossing 300 almost every innings and that I feel is vast improvement from our Fab 4 era. It's the bowling which is hurting us no end. If we manage to bowl the opposition out cheaply, I'm sure our batting would carry over that confidence and score more. The current lot of bowlers that we have are not of International level and that's a shame because in spite of being a cricket crazy nation, we are unable to find the kind of talent which other countries seem to be managing quite easily.

U.Yadav - Bowls 140kmph+ and seems to be the best bet at the moment (though not nearly enough)
V.Aaron - Bowls 140kmph+ but bowls wayward
M.Shami - Bowls at 130-140kmph but gives away a boundary ball every over. His economy is too high in each innings and hence can't seem to build up pressure
I.Sharma - Well, as I said earlier, is a wild card
R.Jadeja - Isn't suited for Test match bowling, only effective in ODIs/T20s
R.Ashwin - Is very low on confidence when it comes to overseas conditions
P.Singh - Seems promising, but needs to be given a cushion of more tests
A.Mishra - Age is catching up to him and we all know what that means in Indian setup
P.Ojha - I feel has lost his rhythm [HASHTAG]#blameIPL[/HASHTAG]
P.Rasool - Too early to comment on him at the moment
H.Singh - Let's be real, he is past his prime

Now tell me how are you gonna win series abroad with this kind of pool?

 

[grkrama]

Having BK for a certainty, Ashwin as the bowling all rounder, depending on the pitch aaron or mishra/ojha, shami till ishy mishy recovers cant believe im saying that, shami should be rested a bit once ishant return, yadav / pankaj, this may not blow the opposition apart but will do a lot better than the current strategies, you don't always need to have an awesome talent pool to win as long as you can man manage effectively.

Sure there is a dearth of fast bowlers but it has never been our strong point, we need to rely on spin and swing, anybody else bowling decent pace like aaron or yadav is a bonus. Overtime we may get a fast bowler, fast bowler's are born not made, but if we are going to keep moaning about what we dont have and neglect the talent we have and say we cant win, then that's what will happen.

Being fast is only one part of a talent to a pace bowler, we are just destroying so many bowlers by just not letting them thrive, i would rather have aaron/yadav go for runs in a couple of matches and let him get better than waiting and watching.

The other thing when our bowlers go for runs, any logical captain would take them of attack and rotate, but MSD due to the illogical selection of just 4 bowlers of whom one is a part timer at best, is forced to grind our bowlers to dust, a shami or bhuvi given enough break, will do a lot better than being forced to take the brunt of the opposition totally.A proper 4th bowler and a decent part timer as 5th bowler is a must.

Just doing this will improve the results a lot better and take the fight to the opposition that in itself half the job done.

 

[asprin]

Being fast is only one part of a talent to a pace bowler, we are just destroying so many bowlers by just not letting them thrive, i would rather have aaron/yadav go for runs in a couple of matches and let him get better than waiting and watching.

The thing is if you've talent, you are bound to shine (80% of the time). Case in point: Bhuvi and Kohli. The 20% comprise of Irfan, Dhawan, etc.

Yadav/Aaron are fast, but fall short on talent. Surely by now there should have been some sign proving that there is something special about them. I fear they might end up being what some people refer to as "bowling machines" rather than a bowler.