India in England Jun-Sept 2014

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I'm with used2bcool here. We might win a test in a series occasionally, but there won't be any consistency. I also agree 100% with him w.r.t our bowlers being non-threatening even for the County sides.

Our problem isn't the batting (even though it might seem like it). We are crossing 300 almost every innings and that I feel is vast improvement from our Fab 4 era. It's the bowling which is hurting us no end. If we manage to bowl the opposition out cheaply, I'm sure our batting would carry over that confidence and score more. The current lot of bowlers that we have are not of International level and that's a shame because in spite of being a cricket crazy nation, we are unable to find the kind of talent which other countries seem to be managing quite easily.

U.Yadav - Bowls 140kmph+ and seems to be the best bet at the moment (though not nearly enough)
V.Aaron - Bowls 140kmph+ but bowls wayward
M.Shami - Bowls at 130-140kmph but gives away a boundary ball every over. His economy is too high in each innings and hence can't seem to build up pressure
I.Sharma - Well, as I said earlier, is a wild card
R.Jadeja - Isn't suited for Test match bowling, only effective in ODIs/T20s
R.Ashwin - Is very low on confidence when it comes to overseas conditions
P.Singh - Seems promising, but needs to be given a cushion of more tests
A.Mishra - Age is catching up to him and we all know what that means in Indian setup
P.Ojha - I feel has lost his rhythm [HASHTAG]#blameIPL[/HASHTAG]
P.Rasool - Too early to comment on him at the moment
H.Singh - Let's be real, he is past his prime

Now tell me how are you gonna win series abroad with this kind of pool?

Couldn't agree more, there is a real lack of bowling depth...actually there's not too many bowlers who are worthy of being picked as first choice seamers for India. Then again, the bowling has always been an issue, spinners have saved India in the past but for some reason, the BCCI selectors have refused to pick any.

 

[lion100lion]

I'm with used2bcool here. We might win a test in a series occasionally, but there won't be any consistency. I also agree 100% with him w.r.t our bowlers being non-threatening even for the County sides.
Our problem isn't the batting (even though it might seem like it). We are crossing 300 almost every innings and that I feel is vast improvement from our Fab 4 era. It's the bowling which is hurting us no end. If we manage to bowl the opposition out cheaply, I'm sure our batting would carry over that confidence and score more. The current lot of bowlers that we have are not of International level and that's a shame because in spite of being a cricket crazy nation, we are unable to find the kind of talent which other countries seem to be managing quite easily.
U.Yadav - Bowls 140kmph+ and seems to be the best bet at the moment (though not nearly enough)
V.Aaron - Bowls 140kmph+ but bowls wayward
M.Shami - Bowls at 130-140kmph but gives away a boundary ball every over. His economy is too high in each innings and hence can't seem to build up pressure
I.Sharma - Well, as I said earlier, is a wild card
R.Jadeja - Isn't suited for Test match bowling, only effective in ODIs/T20s
R.Ashwin - Is very low on confidence when it comes to overseas conditions
P.Singh - Seems promising, but needs to be given a cushion of more tests
A.Mishra - Age is catching up to him and we all know what that means in Indian setup
P.Ojha - I feel has lost his rhythm [HASHTAG]#blameIPL[/HASHTAG]
P.Rasool - Too early to comment on him at the moment
H.Singh - Let's be real, he is past his prime
Now tell me how are you gonna win series abroad with this kind of pool?

The root of the problem is that every player is inspired by Sachin and want to be like him. No one really wants to be a fast bowler.The reason is lack of motivation. Even legends like Gavaskar say that cricket is about batting and no one comes to the stadium to watch the bowler bowl. In the words of Kapil Dev, Fast bowling is basically a labour job. Lot of hard work and with rubbish flat pitches, it sucks all energy from you. It becomes frustrating when you don't even get a wicket. Regular injuries makes your career shorter.

We desperately need an Indian Wasim Akram for motivation.

 

[aditya123]

Come on Sai, our bowling just isn't there. It's not world class. It might win a match or two, but it can't win consistently. An attack of Bhuvneshwar, Shami, Jadeja/Ashwin, and Pankaj/Ishant/whoever would not scare any County side in England. I agree that Umesh Yadav should at least have been on tour, but I don't have any confidence in Varun Aaron, who apart from being a bowler with average cricket intelligence and mediocre control, is also an atrociously bad fielder. Who's there in the domestic circuit that you'd rather have? The cupboard isn't stacked anyway, and what's there is mediocre at best.

The thing is if you've talent, you are bound to shine (80% of the time). Case in point: Bhuvi and Kohli. The 20% comprise of Irfan, Dhawan, etc. Yadav/Aaron are fast, but fall short on talent. Surely by now there should have been some sign proving that there is something special about them. I fear they might end up being what some people refer to as "bowling machines" rather than a bowler.

How many chances have Yadav and Aaron got at the test level? Yadav had the Aussie batsmen in trouble and looked good in Australia (his first test series). The next test he played against England, he outbowled Anderson, Zaheer and Co in 2012. He has`nt played a single test ever since. We pick Gautam Gambhir on his IPL form which is crap. If you were to look at the way Yadav bowled in the final stages of the IPL, he was quick and hostile and has a good outswing. Aaron is more raw at the moment but has that ingredient we miss in our lineup, pace. I`m a huge fan of Shami but he needs rest and has to get his rhythm back. He is a long term prospect for Indian cricket.

We have invested so much in bowlers who give 'control' which is another way of saying bowlers who bowl in the early to mid 130s. If you have seen enough test cricket, you would understand that on fair batting wickets like you had at Southampton control won`t win you test matches. You need some X-factor and some pace to hustle batsmen. The whole attack cannot be made up of 'line and length' bowlers. Yadav and Aaron have`nt played enough for you to suggest they don`t have the talent. Ishant has been around for 52 test matches for God`s sake. Is he talented enough for you? These guys are young and can bowl quick. Let them do that. They will acquire control as they move on but Pankaj cannot gain a yard or pace at this point in his career. We need at least two bowlers who can hustle the batsmen with pace or bounce to go with the control of Bhuvi. It is ridiculous to even think that Pankaj Singh, Shami, Bhuvi and Jadeja are the best combination, even with the resources that we have. We are fielding this lineup because it suits Dhoni`s ego. Pankaj Singh might have been unlucky but beyond a point, his lack of pace was evident. I would play somebody like Aaron/Yadav in a role where they bowl in short bursts but with lot of intent. I`d rather lose that way if these guys can get international exposure than to play safe and know the extent to which the current attack is limited by conditions.

 

[asprin]

How many chances have Yadav and Aaron got at the test level?

Not much. Why? Because they aren't really making headlines at the domestic level too. Aaron is so fragile that he doesn't even play most of the time. Now I'm not saying they need to set the stage on fire and honestly, back home they won't be able to due to the dead pitches, but I hardly read about them troubling the batsman (at the very least) even in the Ranji games.

We have invested so much in bowlers who give 'control' which is another way of saying bowlers who bowl in the early to mid 130s. If you have seen enough test cricket, you would understand that on fair batting wickets like you had at Southampton control won`t win you test matches. You need some X-factor and some pace to hustle batsmen. The whole attack cannot be made up of 'line and length' bowlers. Yadav and Aaron have`nt played enough for you to suggest they don`t have the talent.

I think you misinterpreted my point. No where did I say that we need to stick to bowlers who bowl in the mid 120-130s. In fact, I've been a firm supporter of bringing in pace bowlers.

What I wanted to convey (sadly though) was that even with Yadav and Aaron in the team, I don't think it will make much of a difference. The reason being that they are still not of International level and I fear that won't change. In other words, they are just bowlers who bowl fast, but lack in talent. The batsmen will just milk them for runs at the moment.

These guys are young and can bowl quick. Let them do that.

I would play somebody like Aaron/Yadav in a role where they bowl in short bursts but with lot of intent. I`d rather lose that way if these guys can get international exposure than to play safe and know the extent to which the current attack is limited by conditions.

Now these are the two statements which I agree with, especially the bold part.

They will acquire control as they move on

But this is what I disagree with. If they could, they would have by now (at the Domestic level)

It is ridiculous to even think that Pankaj Singh, Shami, Bhuvi and Jadeja are the best combination, even with the resources that we have.

Again, misinterpreting my point. The bottom-line of my argument is : We don't have bowlers who can bowl the opposition out twice, simply because our bowling pool isn't of quality and that includes Yadav and Aaron. So even if we give chances to those two, I don't see that changing anything

 

[aditya123]

Not much. Why? Because they aren't really making headlines at the domestic level too. Aaron is so fragile that he doesn't even play most of the time. Now I'm not saying they need to set the stage on fire and honestly, back home they won't be able to due to the dead pitches, but I hardly read about them troubling the batsman (at the very least) even in the Ranji games.
I think you misinterpreted my point. No where did I say that we need to stick to bowlers who bowl in the mid 120-130s. In fact, I've been a firm supporter of bringing in pace bowlers.

What I wanted to convey (sadly though) was that even with Yadav and Aaron in the team, I don't think it will make much of a difference. The reason being that they are still not of International level and I fear that won't change. In other words, they are just bowlers who bowl fast, but lack in talent. The batsmen will just milk them for runs at the moment.

Now these are the two statements which I agree with, especially the bold part.

But this is what I disagree with. If they could, they would have by now (at the Domestic level)

Again, misinterpreting my point. The bottom-line of my argument is : We don't have bowlers who can bowl the opposition out twice, simply because our bowling pool isn't of quality and that includes Yadav and Aaron. So even if we give chances to those two, I don't see that changing anything

I would be really scared if my captain thinks this way about his resources. We sometimes attach too much importance to domestic cricket. Yadav and Aaron play on dead Indian tracks in domestic cricket. Pace is something which is not a very common trait in Indian bowlers. Secondly, Joginder Sharma repeatedly gets wickets in Ranji Trophy and so did guys like Ranadeb Bose. Trust me, none of them will succeed in International cricket. Just ignore Yadav`s Ranji performances. Look at his limited stint in international cricket. If you saw him bowl in those games, you would know that he troubled the batsmen and has the spark to do well in test cricket (spell at Perth and Ahmedabad, for example). Sometimes, there is more to picking players than just numbers. This is the difference between Pakistan and India. If Aaron and Yadav were in a Pakistan team setup, they would straightaway blood them into the test side. Our 'line and length bowlers are`nt winning us series anyway. Its easier to achieve better control as a pace bowler than for a medium pacer to achieve that extra yard of pace. Pace does matter unless you are a highly skilled bowler like Zaheer (at his prime, and even he used to clock late 130s to early 140s) or Mohammed Asif. I disagree with us not having enough resources to bowl teams out twice. We have`nt even tried out a couple of our best wicket taking combinations yet. If we exhausted those and then came to this conclusion about resources.

Rather live by the sword and die by it, than die wondering as a captain, which is what Dhoni does. This is not the first time either that he has done this. He picked RP Singh who was holidaying in Miami and then drafted him ino the XI in the 2011 tour. He opted to bowl Raina when England were tottering at 60/5 in the 2nd innings at Lords in 2011. We had to win by a certain margin in the T20 WC of 2012 and he bowled Rohit Sharma ahead of Ashwin who was your regular spinner. If you are still convinced that Dhoni has managed to utilize resources well, I have no further arguments. His captaincy has gone stale and its his ego which dictates his decisions and not any cricketing logic. Repeatedly having a leg slip and asking Jadeja to bowl a negative leg stump line when the opposition captain is struggling and England are only 94/1 after lunch.

 

[asprin]

Your first paragraph is worth debating but your second paragraph again goes out of context.

If you are still convinced that Dhoni has managed to utilize resources well, I have no further arguments

My argument isn't about who should play instead of whom, but the fact that no matter who plays, the quality of our bowling won't be good enough. You keep bringing up Dhoni's team selection policies whereas I'm saying that our current pool of bowlers will struggle to win us matches, and I don't see this changing until we find some exciting talent.

 

[grkrama]

My argument isn't about who should play instead of whom, but the fact that no matter who plays, the quality of our bowling won't be good enough.

Then should we consider to forfeit all our overseas tests.

will struggle to win us matches, and I don't see this changing until we find some exciting talent.

This is the biggest problem in our setup or country there is no miracle solution to anything, there isnt some venkatsteyn or bhuvi johnson born or lurking somewhere, The talent available is more than enough to be groomed and made to win overseas test with right management and captaining.

 

[used2bcool]

Then should we consider to forfeit all our overseas tests.

Of course not. But we must understand that switching a few bowlers around isn't going to suddenly boost our attack to "consistently match-winning" levels.

...there isnt some venkatsteyn or bhuvi johnson born or lurking somewhere, The talent available is more than enough to be groomed and made to win overseas test with right management and captaining.

VenkatSteyn! Love it!

I wholeheartedly disagree with the part in bold. Management and captaincy can get the best of out the skill and talent of the players, and I agree that our management and captaincy are both sub-optimal. But I'm not so sold on the talent-levels of our bowlers that a change in management/captaincy would suddenly bring about a reversal in our (overseas) fortunes.

 

[greymatter776]

Generally after such crushing defeats, you need to make more changes than that. I would bring in fresher legs now. Shami has to be dropped. Aaron for Shami. I would keep Kumar for his allround capabilities. Pankaj Singh will probably continue for the fact that he was unlucky in this test. Gambhir in for Dhawan as Dhawan doesn't seem to learn quick enough from his mistakes. Ashwin in for Rohit (which going by Dhoni's words after the test, is not very likely).

I agree some changes is required but still you see Aaron is good for only his pace.He got no control over his line and I dont think he could bowl long spells.Its true we could experiment with Gambhir but I am not fully confident of a success.Ashwin well even if he come it would be replacing Jadeja but I am not with it.

 

[grkrama]

I wholeheartedly disagree with the part in bold. Management and captaincy can get the best of out the skill and talent of the players, and I agree that our management and captaincy are both sub-optimal. But I'm not so sold on the talent-levels of our bowlers that a change in management/captaincy would suddenly bring about a reversal in our (overseas) fortunes.

The problem here is comparison, will they be successful or feared like steyn n co or johnson n co, the answer would be No.Can they be forged to be an attack that can be able to win tests overseas, take wickets Yes.In the end its our own views and hope i guess.

 

[asprin]

Then should we consider to forfeit all our overseas tests.

I couldn't help but giggle at that.

This is the biggest problem in our setup or country there is no miracle solution to anything

You said it yourself. Simply ringing in the changes will be of no help.

The talent available is more than enough to be groomed and made to win overseas test with right management and captaining

I'm sorry, no. It's not. That's precisely my point. Though Aditya mentioned about letting Yadav/Aaron have enough exposure at the highest level, I still don't think things would change a lot. That will only turn them into medium pacers over a period of time. We have seen plenty of examples of that, both in the pre-Dhoni era as well as the current one.

 

[grkrama]

lot of quoting out of context, i meant as in the way you are hoping some fast bowler needs to be born etc, And you are putting down a bunch of youngsters based on history, its their life im sure each has put atleast 10 years of work to get were they are and we will simply say you are not good enough with out trying them out or nurturing them properly, because people before you were not good enough , you have mustache like them you are wearing nehra's old pants etc etc anyway its your belief.

 

[asprin]

Just to be clear, I'm in no way against anyone. You're making it sound like I have some vendetta against them. I don't.

And the things that I've said are my personal opinions on the two players in question. I could be wrong, I could be right. That's the beauty of it.

 

[grkrama]

No im just saying that we are not even willing to give them a chance, we cant know unless we try out. I can accept people saying yadav is no johson heck even a pattinson, but to say that they wont improve chances of winning is writng them off even before giving them an opportunity to prove themselves. that's what i m saying, i know you also mean well for the team as much myself and others bro

 

[Aalay]

So James Anderson is found not guilty in that pushing incident. This is surprising because I don't understand what evidence did David Boon see to fine Jadeja?