India tour of New Zealand - Jan to Feb 2014

[War]

@War - There is your example. Do you know see how listless our bowlers are when the help from the conditions is next to nil? India might still win this match due to the lead we got, but this keeps proving that to pull India down, render their bowlers ineffective.

This is worrying from India's side because soon other nations will catch up on the trend that we have been discussing about here, and will continue to prepare wickets to not suit India's bowlers. The batsmen might end up with better averages, but our bowlers will always be ineffective when conditions dont help.

Ha to avoid repeating myself, lets take the discussion further since its obvious you are standing firm to this strange position.

If you had to opportunity then to advise the ENG & AUS groundsmen/coaches for IND tours to those countries this year, based on your reasoning you are saying, that you would tell them - despite having a superior fast bowlers than IND - they should NEVER prepare seaming/bouncy tracks in any of the test?

This because if i'm reading you correct -they should be very worried about IND quicks effectiveness being so great in such conditions, it will always come back to bite them. Thus should prepare roads in all the test matches?

 

[SaiSrini]

Ha to avoid repeating myself, lets take the discussion further since its obvious you are standing firm to this strange position.

If you had to opportunity then to advise the ENG & AUS groundsmen/coaches for IND tours to those countries this year, based on your reasoning you are saying, that you would tell them - despite having a superior fast bowlers than IND - they should NEVER prepare seaming/bouncy tracks in any of the test?

This because if i'm reading you correct -they should be very worried about IND quicks effectiveness being so great in such conditions, it will always come back to bite them. Thus should prepare roads in all the test matches?

Yes you read it right. Any team in the world should not prepare a green pitch. And this is not a strange position. From what we've seen in the past few days, most of them (in this forum and some outside too) have been talking about the unnecessity of preparing a green pitch when it can backfire against India.

A bouncy track is different from a green track. A green track also aids lateral movement. A bouncy track could be one where there is a lot of bounce and not much movement. A track with movement plays into India's hands most often than not, because it converts our weakness into a strength (i.e. our bowling).

 

[War]

Yes you read it right. Any team in the world should not prepare a green pitch. And this is not a strange position. From what we've seen in the past few days, most of them (in this forum and some outside too) have been talking about the unnecessity of preparing a green pitch when it can backfire against India.

Its strange because you are essentially saying that for example when IND come here this summer, ENG who have the best swing bowler in the world leading their attack in James Anderosn, who would thrive on green pitches - should not prepare a green pitch - just because of fact that it could maybe help IND fast bowlers. Its not like in last decade IND have won every test match they have played on a greentop overseas - they have lost many as well.

That makes no sense, since no team would think like that. ENG will simply acknowledge the potential danger IND quicks could bring, but will back their bowlers to bowl better than IND in their home conditions & back their batsmen to bat better.

This is the dynamic of world cricket, asian/non-asian teams will always back themselves to do better than the other in their own conditions - even if the opposition may have the weapons to succeed. No cricket team is that versatile.

Plus NZ attack are led by swing bowlers Bolt/Southee, why wouldn't they want to have pitches that would help them?. Their coach was demanding it before this series - India in New Zealand 2013-14 : Hesson calls for green pitches for India Tests | Cricket News | New Zealand v India | ESPN Cricinfo

The only reason it has backfired in this test, is because NZ didn't bowl first when the conditions & they probably thought too it would have seamed around for longer. After all when a team picks 5 quicks, you probably want to bowl 1st.

A bouncy track is different from a green track. A green track also aids lateral movement. A bouncy track could be one where there is a lot of bounce and not much movement. A track with movement plays into India's hands most often than not, because it converts our weakness into a strength (i.e. our bowling).

You people seem confused. In a previous post - http://www.planetcricket.org/forums/2688624-post905.html i saw aditya mention Perth 2008 test, Kingston 2006 & Jo'Burg 2006, as an example of a game where the tactics backfired & Perth/Kingston/Jo'Burg as we all know are not green pitches. Those are three of the most notorious bouncy decks in cricket history.

 

[SaiSrini]

What horror is this? Can't we finish off a test match having dominated for a major part of it? The way NZ is batting and the lead they have got, they are back in the game. If they bat the day out, they should get a lead of 250+ and India will then be trying to save the game. Just feel like saying "bloody hell...."

 

[sifter132]

That makes no sense, since no team would think like that. ENG will simply acknowledge the potential danger IND quicks could bring, but will back their bowlers to bowl better than IND in their home conditions & back their batsmen to bat better.

Well I think it makes sense You are helping a team negate it's weakness - pace bowling. Suddenly India's bowlers have got bounce and movement when you were banking on them having none. Weakness gone. Yes, you back your own bowlers to be better, but you do that every match anyway - there is nothing unique in that approach.

Possibly the more important question is: can England's bowlers get the Indian batsmen out on 'normal' wickets? If not they need to add more potency until it comes to a point where 20 wickets are probable, and the English batsmen will just have to suffer the consequences if it's starting to help the Indian pacemen.

Just dismissing the strategy as 'not making sense' ignores some of the facts. India have won Tests on helpful pitches - bouncy ones as you point out. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard for the stat-rats to compare India's fast bowlers on helpful decks vs non-helpful, then compare England fast bowlers on helpful decks vs non-helpful. Whichever had the largest gap would be the pitch you would prepare.

And Dale Steyn just choked on his corn flakes when you called Jimmy Anderson the best swing bowler in the world Most skillful and talented? Perhaps, but he's definitely not the most effective.

What horror is this? Can't we finish off a test match having dominated for a major part of it? The way NZ is batting and the lead they have got, they are back in the game. If they bat the day out, they should get a lead of 250+ and India will then be trying to save the game. Just feel like saying "bloody hell...."

And yes, back on topic Fantastic stonewalling from NZ here. Lead is 120 and growing! Anything over 200 would give them hope.

 

[Aalay]

I don't think it's the bowlers fault because there is absolutely nothing in this pitch. It looks absolutely dead with no seam, swing or spin. There is a bit of inconsistent bounce but that is it. The only way to take wickets on this pitch right now is if the batsman make a mistake or you have Mitchell Johnson in your team.

 

[surendar]

This is test match at its best, when we thought it would be an innings defeat - this pair turned the tables towards strong hope of victory now. Anything around 200-250 is going to apply pressure for us with mindset of drawing this game in final day & ending up loosing wickets. Hope I just didn't jinx it!

 

[War]

Well I think it makes sense You are helping a team negate it's weakness - pace bowling. Suddenly India's bowlers have got bounce and movement when you were banking on them having none. Weakness gone. Yes, you back your own bowlers to be better, but you do that every match anyway - there is nothing unique in that approach.

Possibly the more important question is: can England's bowlers get the Indian batsmen out on 'normal' wickets? If not they need to add more potency until it comes to a point where 20 wickets are probable, and the English batsmen will just have to suffer the consequences if it's starting to help the Indian pacemen.

Just dismissing the strategy as 'not making sense' ignores some of the facts. India have won Tests on helpful pitches - bouncy ones as you point out. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard for the stat-rats to compare India's fast bowlers on helpful decks vs non-helpful, then compare England fast bowlers on helpful decks vs non-helpful. Whichever had the largest gap would be the pitch you would prepare.

And Dale Steyn just choked on his corn flakes when you called Jimmy Anderson the best swing bowler in the world Most skillful and talented? Perhaps, but he's definitely not the most effective.

Every team backs their home strength don't they - especially when its asian/non-asian team at home vs from non-asia/asia team.

As i mentioned before, its not if India fast bowlers have bowled well on every single bowler friendly track since 2002. If that was the case IND would have won all their tours in AUS/ENG/SA/NZ/WI in the last decade.

Only in that case would AUS/ENG/SA/NZ/WI coaching, analyst staff seriously go to their home groundsmen and say "we want roads/flat pitches, because IND quicks will hurt us & we will lose the series".

For example it was mentioned that IND won at Perth 2008 (although that was during the dormant Perth years of 2005-2009) when AUS 4 prong pace attack tactic backfired. But yet when IND returned in 2011, AUS tried the same tactic & they won.

IND seamers proved their mettle to bowl in ENG conditions on the 2007 tour - yet in 2011, ENG groundsmen prepared similar pitches (natural overhead conditions did its part as well) & IND lost all the tests.

IND beat S Africa in Jo Burg 06, that didn't stop S Africa groundsmen from preparing a similar pitch last month.

The reverse also is the same:

When ENG won in India 2012, i'm sure IND acknowledged the threat that Swann/Panesar could bring. But they backed their home spinner to do better - it backfired, but no one can seriously fault IND to that tactic.

AUS went to SRI 2004 with two high class spinners in Warne/MacGill - SRI still prepared turners, picked spin attacks - but still lost. You can't fault SRI for backing their players to handling home conditions better.

When i say Anderson is the best "swing" bowler, i mean he is the best exponent of seaming conditions than anyone - Khan & Philander also not far being. Steyn can swing the ball of course and be lethal in such conditions, but Anderson is a more clinical exponent of those conditions than him, ever so slightly.

 

[used2bcool]

Epic stuff from New Zealand. Truly epic. The pitch looks dead though. What the hell happened here?

 

[grkrama]

Fantastic Batting from the two, They seem to be in a zone of their own like zen monks, treat to watch this match is getting better and better.
The pitch seems to have become a road though today.

 

[playkid12]

The pitch seems to have become a road though today. The pitch looks dead though. I don't think it's the bowlers fault because there is absolutely nothing in this pitch. It looks absolutely dead with no seam, swing or spin.

 

[SaiSrini]

To me, the series is gone. NZ look set to bat out the day and into tomorrow. They might set India a target of 300+ which India will not chase (even though they should). For India, 1-0 will look better than 2-0 and so, India will give up.

Depressing! How does wickets like this go from green to a road? But still, this brings to fore India's inability to force things when the conditions don't help. I am sure a team like SA or Australia might force the issue better off such pitches.

 

[OKP]

How nice is Baz just quietly.

 

[abhi_jacko]

While its depressing and pathetic to see our bowling attack being so clueless, you cannot really blame the bowlers too much. Only 3 specialist bowlers one bowling allrounder going into a test match - you will always, always struggle to take 20 wickets. Wonder when we will wrap this basic idea around our heads

But bravo Kiwis. bravo Brendo. A small part of me wishes that he gets to his triple.

 

[surendar]

Just hope that day 5 doesn't magically turn to bowlers paradise if India gets all out on day 5. What is happening? Clueless, Brendon magic!