New Zealand Tour of West Indies May-July 2014

War

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Or even reach it...:lol

Not seen the West Indies 2nd innings. How poor were they with the bat? Most teams wouldn't have been able to see the game out but you'd expect a bit more fight from the West Indies.

As i just mentioned, its a major achillies heel with windies when they bat in test & 50 overs cricket in recent years - they bat like its a T20 game. Their batsman always make these mistakes:

- absorb too much dot balls

- don't run enough singles and twos

- look for boundaries and sixes

You can get away with this in T20 cricket, but obviously in test/50 cricket it causes a batsmen to be under pressure, cause the score doesn't tick over & they get themselves out most of time, instead of via any fantastic deliveries. Cause its not like Sodhi/Craig was bowling like a reincarnation of Kumble/Harbhajan at their peak in this test.

I don't know how their coach Gibson, tells inherent shot makers like Gayle & Samuels to do this, when it how they have had international success. Or maybe Gibson just can't given he is bowling coach by trade.

I noticed before the series, the windies had Sir Gary Sobers & Viv Richards helping their batsmen, but if their legendary expertise can't help - i don't know what they can do.
 

Howsie

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No disrespect to my NZ friends - but for windies to give a spinner like Craig 9 wickets on debut is more to due to their inept batting display - rather than anything that special for Craig.

Craig doesn't even bowl the controversial doosra or the carron ball. Nor does he bowl with any noticeable guile as a top-quality/very good normal offie does like Swann/Lyon.

The way how the tail attacked Craig at the end, the batsmen should be kicking themselves.

However this is just one test for Craig, so I won't say he couldn't be a useful test bowler for NZ going forward.

IMO NZ & WI are on the same level talent wise in most departments - but NZ just play test cricket better - especially as a batting group. When windies bat, you can see they are stuck in T20 mode - except for when Chanderpaul plays.

Nah, Mark Craig bowled well. Yes the Windies have a rather poor batting lineup but he made a few decent batsman look rather average. A lot was made of his first class bowling average before the match (it was 45) but that has more to do with the conditions in NZ domestic cricket not his ability. He's tall, get's good bounce, was getting drift in that first innings and can give the ball a decent rip. He comprehensively outbowled Shane Shillingford for example. You could say maybe the actual batsmen could've attacked him more but that was nothing but pure slogging at the end their, could've easily ended before it started.

Don't argee with the talent level either. NZ have a better batting line up, bowling line up and one thing the Windies miss, an actual all rounder. I think they're missing a Neesham/Anderson type player.
 

ferg512

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IMO NZ & WI are on the same level talent wise in most departments - but NZ just play test cricket better - especially as a batting group. When windies bat, you can see they are stuck in T20 mode - except for when Chanderpaul plays.

Not sure really, we have some really great youngsters coming through that have already performed at international level, we definitely have far more talent in terms of pace bowling. Agreed on the batting though, none of them seem to want to graft out an innings. You compare that to the way Watling, Williamson and Latham etc. put such a high price on their wicket (at the cost of batting a bit slowly) and it is like they are in T20 mode.
 

War

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Nah, Mark Craig bowled well. Yes the Windies have a rather poor batting lineup but he made a few decent batsman look rather average. A lot was made of his first class bowling average before the match (it was 45) but that has more to do with the conditions in NZ domestic cricket not his ability. He's tall, get's good bounce, was getting drift in that first innings and can give the ball a decent rip. He comprehensively outbowled Shane Shillingford for example. You could say maybe the actual batsmen could've attacked him more but that was nothing but pure slogging at the end their, could've easily ended before it started.

Don't necessarily disagree with you & as i said I don't want to make any sweeping statements on Craig after just one test. IIRC, Paul Wiseman took a 5-wicket haul on debut too vs a far better SRI team & at best he turned out to be a serviceable off-spinner at best for NZ - instead of world beater.

Overall though the main attack was on the Windies batsman & their style of test batsmanship which I see making the same mistakes repeatedly.

Don't argee with the talent level either. NZ have a better batting line up, bowling line up and one thing the Windies miss, an actual all rounder. I think they're missing a Neesham/Anderson type player.

This here comes down a matter of perception really.

NZ have a clear issue with its test openers. Fulton is poor & I've seen NZ fans on this forum before suggest Guptil is not a test player given his struggles in the role in the past. Rutherford hasn't done anything since his debut series hundred vs England & this is Latham first major test performances.

Gayle is still better than all of them.

Powell maybe in the same boat as Rutherford right now as a young talented opener that has not kicked on after starting positively. Lendl Simmons a talented opener has the similar "limited overs" tag on him like Guptil also. Kraigg Braithwate to be is on a similar skill level to Latham & you will probably see him this series to gauge your own assessment.

As young batting stars Lil Bravo & Williamson are about even, despite Bravo having the better average to date.

C'Paul better than Taylor as the two teams best batters.

McCullum better than Samuels, especially right with McCullum scoring that triple recently & Samules declining since his 2012 form.

In DW Bravo/Russell i do think they have all-rounders on the Anderson/Neesham level. Bravo would have played this test if not for injury. But the kiwi boys have the edge based on the current form & the aforementioned T20 issues reasons.

Ramdin/Watling pretty similar short keeper bats who are a difficult to get out. Although i think Watling is slightly more versatile bat than Ramdin, since i've seen him batting higher up the for NZ and look fairly comfortable.

But you guys have Ronchi as back-up & WI don't really have a notable back-up to Ramdin.

Windies have a clear spin bowlers edge.

The quicks stocks are interesting though: Southee/Bolt/Henry/Wagner/McClenegan/Bennett/Milne vs Taylor/Roach/Holder/Rampaul/Cotterell/Cummins/Gabriel (these are just the ones i've seen on both sides internationally or domestically).

Obviously Southee/Bolt are in top form ATM as the new all pair - but it shouldn't be forgotten that Roach/Rampaul was doing very well as new-ball pair for windies as well before injuries to both late last year. And this test match Taylor came back & reminded the world of his quality.

So i look their stocks both teams with two dangerous new-ball bowlers who have proven their selves at international level - with a set of talented fast bowlers behind him seeking to make their marks at the highest level.
 

Haynes123

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What a disgrace again, I didn't even watch because I knew the end result, if they keep on picking incompetent players they will keep on losing, that is a fact, and if they loose with putting up a fight that's a different story, but they just gave up.:mad

Congrats to New Zealand they have really came far in the last two years, and have two excellent opening bowlers, and the fighting spirit is immense, it lets me think of the olden days of new Zealand cricket where the Old west indies crushed all in front of them but lost against the black caps who never gave up fighting.:cheers
 

ferg512

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What a disgrace again, I didn't even watch because I knew the end result, if they keep on picking incompetent players they will keep on losing, that is a fact, and if they loose with putting up a fight that's a different story, but they just gave up.:mad

To be fair though who else is out there? The pool of quality players just seems so small to choose from. I know Narine would definitely be there but what else are they supposed to do in terms of batting?
 

dwaynemarley

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If West Indies are going to succeed, then they need to take a long look at their batting approach- the current top six is not good enough to make enough runs to win a test match. Samuels, Powell and Edwards have all got to be under pressure for their spots at Trinidad after their performances in Jamaica.

Obviously Gayle, Chanders and Darren Bravo will be selected for the next test, but who else could the West Indies turn to? Surely Samuels time is up, he doesn't look interested and hasn't made any runs since he was hit by Malinga. Also, how does Kieron Powell keep his spot- he looks good but never does anything.

The bowlers did an ok job, Roach looks underdone but should be better in Trinidad, obviously Narine would be a bonus. However they looked one fast bowler too short- I think Holder should play the next test instead of Benn.

And what is the state of Dwayne Bravo's fitness?

Line up should be 1. Gayle 2. Brathwaite 3. Edwards 4. Darren Bravo 5. Chanderpaul 6. Powell/Dwayne Bravo (depending on Bravo's fitness) 7. Ramdin 8. Roach 9. Holder 10. Shillingford 11. Taylor

I think Powell could succeed down the order, he doesn't seem to have the right technique to open the batting.
 

Lebanna

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IMO NZ & WI are on the same level talent wise in most departments - but NZ just play test cricket better - especially as a batting group. When windies bat, you can see they are stuck in T20 mode - except for when Chanderpaul plays.

I think the main difference and the reason NZ punch above their weight in general is that NZ are a team, probably more so than any other country. They have solid players all the way down team and they support each other, pick up the slack is someone has an off day and work in pairs whether bowling or batting.

Occasionally they have a mental collapse a la Lords last year but generally they are a tough side. Makes them great to watch as a neutral
 

StinkyBoHoon

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I would have to say I think talent wise NZ are miles ahead of the windies.

the windies have a clutch of decent spinners and roach could turn out very good but batting wise they are dead in the water once Chanderpaul retires.

NZ have got taylor for a lot more seasons, kane williamson looks good and they have good depth in their fast bowlers (which is far better than having loads of spinners).

I think saying that NZ just play better test cricket or whatever massively understates how important that is, you can be a very succesful test player with decent talent if you have the mental application and you can reduce Lara-esque talent to nothing if you lack it.
 
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War

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I would have to say I think talent wise NZ are miles ahead of the windies.

the windies have a clutch of decent spinners and roach could turn out very good but batting wise they are dead in the water once Chanderpaul retires.

NZ have got taylor for a lot more seasons, kane williamson looks good and they have good depth in their fast bowlers (which is far better than having loads of spinners).

I think saying that NZ just play better test cricket or whatever massively understates how important that is, you can be a very succesful test player with decent talent if you have the mental application and you can reduce Lara-esque talent to nothing if you lack it.

Miles ahead is an over-exaggeration.

It just two years ago NZ were being bowled out for 40 on in S Africa & windies blasted dem in the caribbean 2-0 & 4-1. How do you interpret what has happened to the teams since they last met in the Caribbean?

NZ team is basically the same since the 2012 series, just recently they have had two talented all-rounders Anderson/Neesham emergence. WI the same too, but some players have stagnated in the format.

Windies team also much the same also. Thus IMO as i mentioned before, its a very simple case off NZ playing test cricket better & windies being exposed more & more as a team that don't play it well - but are failing to transition their T20 talents into the longer format.

NZ & WI fast bowlers depth as i mentioned above is not a massive difference based on what i've seen of both sides. Windies as a bowling group in the last 3 years have actually been doing quite well.

As you said, being good at test cricket is a mental issue - that I'm not sure if their coaches are failing to address or the players themselves don't want to adjust. By the time these series is over, I think we will have a much clearer indication of what exactly windies are, because I've seen perform worst in 1st test & come back. Plus thankfully its a 3 tests series for once, so all will be exposed.
 

ferg512

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Miles ahead is an over-exaggeration.

It just two years ago NZ were being bowled out for 40 on in S Africa & windies blasted dem in the caribbean 2-0 & 4-1. How do you interpret what has happened to the teams since they last met in the Caribbean?

NZ team is basically the same since the 2012 series, just recently they have had two talented all-rounders Anderson/Neesham emergence. WI the same too, but some players have stagnated in the format.

Our team is considerably different from that last tour, only 3 players played the first test of this series and that series. We even had Martin and Vettori still playing then. Still not sure I agree regarding pace bowling stocks as well, Roach, Taylor and Rampaul is a solid core but I don't see much else really. I mean Best and Gabriel were both awful in the series here in December.
 

War

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Our team is considerably different from that last tour, only 3 players played the first test of this series and that series. We even had Martin and Vettori still playing then. Still not sure I agree regarding pace bowling stocks as well, Roach, Taylor and Rampaul is a solid core but I don't see much else really. I mean Best and Gabriel were both awful in the series here in December.

Well yes its not 100% similar man for man, but core players now such as McCullum, Taylor, Williamson, Southee, Bolt, Watling all came then when you guys were on a bit of low & have all stepped up excellent since that series.

While a similar windies core except for C'Paul has either been inconsistent or dropped of considerably.

With regards in the fast bowling comparison list i made before, i didn't mention Best to be fair, his time is finished with windies. Gabriel indeed bowled poorly in NZ, but IMO he was having a bad end of the year, because he was looking good in earlier in 2013 & on debut in England 2012:


Southee/Bolt/Henry/Wagner/McClenegan/Bennett/Milne vs Taylor/Roach/Holder/Rampaul/Cotterell/Cummins/Gabriel (these are just the ones i've seen on both sides internationally or domestically).
 

StinkyBoHoon

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bracewell is better than most of those NZ bowlers you mentioned, just needs to be kept away from Ryder and he'll be good too.

it's a no brainer to me which of those two groups is the better pack.
 

Lebanna

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West Indies v New Zealand, 2nd Test, Trinidad : West Indies axe Marlon Samuels and Kieran Powell | Cricket News | West Indies v New Zealand | ESPN Cricinfo

Fully justified. Marlon, for all his talent, does not seem interested on the field. Powell needs to take a break and work on his technique.

I agree with that they needed to be dropped, but I'm not exactly awed by their replacements. That article mentions that Johnson has a first class average of 33 after 50 games, which is fine, but not outstanding. I'm not sure how he'll handle Southee and Boult.

Blackwood seems to have more potential based on numbers alone but again he's only played 16 first class games.
 

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