3rd Test: England v Australia at Old Trafford Aug 1-5, 2013

Owzat

International Coach
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Online Cricket Games Owned
England squad: Alastair Cook (Essex) (Capt), James Anderson (Lancashire), Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire), Ian Bell (Warwickshire), Tim Bresnan (Yorkshire), Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire), Monty Panesar (Sussex), Kevin Pietersen (Surrey), Matt Prior (Sussex), Joe Root (Yorkshire), Graeme Swann (Nottinghamshire), James Taylor (Nottinghamshire), Chris Tremlett (Surrey), Jonathan Trott (Warwickshire)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/23481370

Taylor in as cover for Pietersen, good to see them picking a batsman who gets on with it rather than whinge about being dropped which may have been a stupid come suicidal move.

Not convinced Taylor will make it, come on and prove me wrong.

Tremlett and Monty in, Finn out. I like Tremlett, but don't like Finn being dropped especially if it is to do with his relationship with Cook and not his ability. He offers something different. Not quite sure how Monty would fit in, five bowlers?!? :noway

I can't see us dropping Anderson so what, include an attack of Bresnan/Broad, Swann, Anderson, Panesar? That could leave us short of seamers if there is something in the pitch, we're bowling first day or whatever.

Or put another way, I'd rather have Root as a 2nd spinner than Trott as a 3rd seamer. And I'd rather not see a bottom six of 6. Prior, 7. Bresnan, 8. Broad, 9. Swann, 10. Anderson, 11. Panesar. If there is a way back into this series for the aussies, that lower order could be it.
 
Last edited:

barmyarmy

Retired Administrator
Joined
Mar 12, 2003
Location
Edinburgh
They won't play Panesar. Especially as Root bowled pretty well at Lord's. Would certainly be interesting if they choose Tremlett ahead of Bresnan. What's his form like this season?
Poor Steve Finn though; this happened to him last Ashes series as well!
 

Owzat

International Coach
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Online Cricket Games Owned
They won't play Panesar. Especially as Root bowled pretty well at Lord's. Would certainly be interesting if they choose Tremlett ahead of Bresnan. What's his form like this season?


Tremlett

LVCC 1 : 19 wkts @ 39.63
YB40 : 4 wkts @ 28.50
FLt20 : 3 wkts @ 25.33

Not so good, although according to BBC Finn's Championship wickets have cost 39.00 . Onions has taken 35 @ 23.20, even Stokes has taken 30 @ 24.70 . I have long suspected it is a club mentality and the board/captain want players in rather than picking the in form player from a target group

Poor Steve Finn though; this happened to him last Ashes series as well!

I've seen captains of the past favour some bowlers and marginalise others, although Finn hasn't done much wrong. His last 10 Test bowls have produced :

0/37
2/80
1/62
3/36
4/63
1/57
6/125
0/36
2/72
1/102

20 wkts @ 33.50, four wickets per Test, can't see too much wrong with that - especially as he has only failed to take a wicket in an innings twice.

In contrast Broad has taken 18 wickets in his last 10 bowls in Tests, albeit at 28.50 thanks to a 7/44. He's also failed to take a wicket in an innings only twice in the last 10 innings. I suppose his wickets are cheaper, but I'd rather have the more wickets than worry about an extra 100 runs (pro rata for Broad up to 20 wickets) spread over 10 innings - especially as his brace in the 1st Test could conceivably have changed the direction of that innings, early wickets helping us get the aussies into a position which we didn't wrap up, but was a good one.

Anderson has taken 25 wickets in his last 10 bowls @ 20.32. Bresnan somewhat surprisingly, unless favouritism is rife, has taken 17 wickets but at 43.53. This includes 8/141 in a Test against West Indies, take that away and it's 9 wickets @ 66.56 in his last eight bowls. In fairness he did take a couple in each innings in the last Test, but I do have doubts over selection policy and the buddy buddy system that I suspect exists and has operated for some time.
 

War

Chairman of Selectors
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Online Cricket Games Owned
I'm confused has Finn really been that below par to be dropped?. This is very harsh.

Otherwise happy to Tremlett back. At his best, he is probably the most difficult England bowler to negotiate still.
 

ste_mc_efc

Chairman of Selectors
Joined
Jan 15, 2006
Location
Liverpool
Online Cricket Games Owned
Looking at just the averages like that makes it easier to argue for favouritism. If you look at a bigger, more in depth picture it's a much closer decision, close enough that both look reasonable.

For a start the quality of opposition in those 10 tests (actually i'm not entirely sure if it's tests, or test innings, but this point stands for both anyway) is tilted in Finn's favour a bit. Although I'd even question why last 10 is the measured volume when they have 19 and 23 tests. May as well just look at their whole records imo.

Over the whole records finn has a bowling average about 2 runs better. Bresnan has scored ~3x the amount of runs at ~3x finn's average. I understand bowling stats should be more important, but you can't just discount the differing contributions with the bat because of that.

Bresnan has a much better economy rate is much better (2.95 v 3.65), as bowlers they have different roles, Finn is a strike bowler (and has a lead of 48 v 63.5 here) but this is where the context of a bowling unit is needed. With Anderson being the leading bowler who takes most of the wickets he is our primary strike bowler. Finn would be secondary to that, and broad takes almost as many wickets as Finn, which diminishes the value of Finn as a wicket taker.

Bresnan is not a strike bowler. so his value as a bowler is largely to support, to bowl spells of tight bowling to build pressure and soak up overs. A role he generally does well.

In the last test Finn played he bowled some terrible spells. With one absolutely terrible one in the second innings where he came in when the aussies were under a lot of pressure and he bowled tripe and got smacked around relieving the pressure which is not a quantifiable measure checked out on stats guru, but it is definitely something to be considered. Obviously anyone can have an off day/match/session/spell, so it's a small sample, but as career stats show, bresnan is less expensive, so it's not a very isolated thing.

With Anderson, Broad and swann taking wickets against australia the selectors are looking at what role they want the 4th bowler to fulfill. And it appears that bresnan is better suited to that.

Personally i'd have stuck with Finn for the 2nd test, he's overall a better bowler than Bresnan (although weaker in some aspects/roles) and with a 4 man attack if one of the 3 other bowlers has an off day the lesser wicket taking prowess of bresnan makes the attack look very light. But I can see it's not such a clear cut decision that if the selectors don't share my view i will start moaning about favouritism and a boys club.
 

Owzat

International Coach
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Online Cricket Games Owned
Looking at just the averages like that makes it easier to argue for favouritism. If you look at a bigger, more in depth picture it's a much closer decision, close enough that both look reasonable.

For a start the quality of opposition in those 10 tests (actually i'm not entirely sure if it's tests, or test innings, but this point stands for both anyway) is tilted in Finn's favour a bit. Although I'd even question why last 10 is the measured volume when they have 19 and 23 tests. May as well just look at their whole records imo.

Noone is "looking at just the averages" and the reason for picking the last 10 innings is simply that is recent form, looking for reasons why Finn might have been dropped.

Over the whole records finn has a bowling average about 2 runs better. Bresnan has scored ~3x the amount of runs at ~3x finn's average. I understand bowling stats should be more important, but you can't just discount the differing contributions with the bat because of that.

When you have a scenario of Swann batting 11 as came up in the last Test, there isn't a huge amount of gain to runs down the order. Four bowlers in the side, priority has to be wicket taking. You don't pick four bowlers and then base one or more's inclusion on batting. If they have that string to their bow as well then fair enough, but if we're picking four it should be on bowling primarily.

Bresnan has a much better economy rate is much better (2.95 v 3.65), as bowlers they have different roles, Finn is a strike bowler (and has a lead of 48 v 63.5 here) but this is where the context of a bowling unit is needed. With Anderson being the leading bowler who takes most of the wickets he is our primary strike bowler. Finn would be secondary to that, and broad takes almost as many wickets as Finn, which diminishes the value of Finn as a wicket taker.

ER is fairly irrelevant in Tests, it is wicket taking that is the key. You may even find there's a link between ER, SR and Average anyway ;)

In the last test Finn played he bowled some terrible spells. With one absolutely terrible one in the second innings where he came in when the aussies were under a lot of pressure and he bowled tripe and got smacked around relieving the pressure which is not a quantifiable measure checked out on stats guru,

Now that's more like it. All bowlers can have terrible spells, but to drop him after one Test and for his home Test is where we're at, not so much if he bowled badly at times during one Test.

And of course this is about his exclusion from the squad as much as from the team, he goes from in the team, to in the squad, to out of the squad in three Tests..................

With Anderson, Broad and swann taking wickets against australia the selectors are looking at what role they want the 4th bowler to fulfill. And it appears that bresnan is better suited to that.

I'd argue Finn is better opening the bowling than Bresnan or Broad, both can fill the role but I'd say it's not their best role. So I'd look at it from that perspective, not lump them in as 4th bowler.

Personally i'd have stuck with Finn for the 2nd test, he's overall a better bowler than Bresnan (although weaker in some aspects/roles) and with a 4 man attack if one of the 3 other bowlers has an off day the lesser wicket taking prowess of bresnan makes the attack look very light. But I can see it's not such a clear cut decision that if the selectors don't share my view i will start moaning about favouritism and a boys club.

Also the element of suspicion over a "boy's club" is bringing in Tremlett who has done the square root of FA. I suspect they like what Tremlett offers in terms of height etc, but the selection policy is inconsistent to say the least.

As we won the 1st Test I would have expected the side to remain unchanged, then if Finn sprayed the ball all over the shop in spells you could make a case for leaving him out. Bell and others in the past have all survived very poor spells, Bell has scored runs this series but went a long spell (19 Tests) with only one Test hundred.

I've never suggested he be permadropped, but some have one ordinary or weak match and are dropped, he had a substantial period of ordinary form averaging not a lot over 30 and yet was a permanent fixture. Some might suggest "he's come good", he may well have come good quicker with a break and time at his county.

I remember looking at the low scores by England, like the 81 against Sri Lanka and 51 against West Indies, it was the same players in the XI time and again - six of the players in the 'side of 51' against West Indies are in the squad for Old Trafford.


It may just be a perception, but I don't think the handling of Finn and other players is always the best. Ironically when Compton scored just 54 runs in six innings some were suggesting he was unlucky, Finn has an ordinary game against Australia and is dropped. So to go back to the original question of why include recent form, wouldn't you be p1ssed off if you took 20 wickets in your last five Tests and was left out of the team then squad...............?!?!?

----------

I'm confused has Finn really been that below par to be dropped?. This is very harsh.

I agree it is, at the very least, harsh. Out of the team I could understand, but to drop him for Tremlett who is in no real form himself just beggars belief

Otherwise happy to Tremlett back. At his best, he is probably the most difficult England bowler to negotiate still.

Has to be a theory about height and type or something, I mean I've always thought of Finn as liable to be expensive, but picks up wickets and offers something different to the other three seamers who did play in the 2nd Test.

Or maybe as Cricinfo suggests, it is to do with Finn and his run up, and of course the knocking the stumps off at the bowler's end - a joke of a situation which brought about changes to rules :facepalm This kinda makes me laugh, they change the rules to accommodate Murali's throwing style while they change the rules to make life tough for Finn.

Different aspects of delivery I know, but I've seen so many round arm, horizontal and other actions that I find it ironic that Finn just knocks off the bail which barely impacts the batsman and others whose delivery actions are questionable get support. I mean would you not find it distracting/hard with the actions like those of Paul Adams, and Lasith Malinga?!?!? And the ICC/MCC worry about knocking bails off as a distraction!
 

TBA

School Cricketer
Joined
Aug 26, 2006
Online Cricket Games Owned
Gonna be a big one. Cant wait. Been a strange week with no cricket on. Will be interesting to see the Australian selection. Interesting also to see Finn out and Tremlett in. I hope the big guy does well if he's selected (although I don't think he will be)

Cant wait!! :cheers
 

sifter132

Panel of Selectors
Joined
Oct 29, 2006
Location
NSW
Poor Finn...he wasn't great in first innings at Trent Bridge, but he bowled a nice 5 over spell in that 2nd innings when England really needed to try to tie down Clarke/Smith while Anderson was resting and Swann was facing 2 right handers who like spin. Thought he'd turned the corner there, but the selectors/Cook obviously don't trust him. His over count was one give away - he bowled less than half the overs Anderson bowled in the match, probably would have been even less if Broad were fitter in 1st innings.
 

sifter132

Panel of Selectors
Joined
Oct 29, 2006
Location
NSW
So the game inches closer and Australia still have questions to answer, the newest one being is Steve Smith going to be fit to play? He's got a back niggle.

Bird, Starc, Lyon and Agar are fighting for 2 spots. Hopefully Aussies don't play the 2 spinners...I think Bird deserves a run. Starc keeps getting selected on potential, but still can't get the ball in the right area often enough. Bird should be better at that. Whoever they pick, as long as they can crack the England middle order open that will be huge. Despite their big win, England were 3/30-odd twice in that last Test, haven't seen that mentioned too much in the aftermath. If Australia can get out fricken Ian Bell they might be able to skittle England (definitely the glass half-full view there :p)

Then there's the batting...Khawaja and Clarke made 50s last Test - they should stay. Smith made a 50 in the 1st Test, 100 vs Sussex and took wickets, he should stay. Other 3 spots aren't so clear. Does Warner get one of them? Warner made 193 vs SA A, but the guys he's competing against: Watson, Rogers, Hughes have all scored runs in the warmup games too...The Watson/Rogers parternship has almost been decent, Rogers said today that most times they felt they were on getting on top of the England new ball, and then a wicket would fall. So I think the Aussies would like to see that partnership stay for the time being and see if it can build on that potential. That means it's Warner vs Hughes for a middle order spot I'd guess. I'd give Hughes another run personally, and whichever batsman fails the hardest this Test gets replaced by Warner in the 4th.
 

Auwais

International Coach
Joined
Sep 6, 2003
Location
England
Online Cricket Games Owned
You don't need another left handed counter-puncher in your side, you need more batsmen who can build an innings.

Watson needs to swallow his ego and be dropped down the order, it's a similar situation to Hafeez opening or coming in at 3 for Pakistan, it doesn't suit them as batsmen.
 

TBA

School Cricketer
Joined
Aug 26, 2006
Online Cricket Games Owned
Is it worth England picking a 2nd spinner in Panesar? Or possibly throw Root the ball from time to time. Did a decent job at Lords.
 

ste_mc_efc

Chairman of Selectors
Joined
Jan 15, 2006
Location
Liverpool
Online Cricket Games Owned
Is it worth England picking a 2nd spinner in Panesar? Or possibly throw Root the ball from time to time. Did a decent job at Lords.

I'd say not. Our seamers are doing well enough as it is, rocking the boat so drastically when 2-0 up seems needless.

Thinking about it, it's a shame Rashid hasn't progressed more. It could be an ideal situation for him assuming KP missed the match.
 

angryangy

ICC Chairman
Joined
Oct 1, 2004
You don't need another left handed counter-puncher in your side, you need more batsmen who can build an innings.
It doesn't matter. All of Warner, Wade and Cowan have made at least one hundred for Australia in the past year or two, compared with the majority who haven't. They're all left handers and while Cowan doesn't fit the bill, you could well argue that Wade is a counter-puncher. It's more than a little embittering to see Australia struggle for runs with an apparent majority of their most proven run scorers on the bench.

On the obverse side, you have Hughes, Watson, Khawaja and Smith. There's some differing groups of people there. Most have made a decent 50 in the series. Watson appears to be struggling, while Khawaja and Smith appear to be in better form, but the net result is that Watson has made more runs without making a 50.

Fundamentally, what has been missing for Australia is anyone who can get a century. If you'd refuse to pick Warner on those grounds, then I don't know why you'd pick anyone else.
 

sifter132

Panel of Selectors
Joined
Oct 29, 2006
Location
NSW
Calling Cowan, Wade and Warner our 'proven run scorers' made me chuckle :lol I guess Warner's got a better chance than most of getting a big score - why not give him a shot in a lineup where no one else is doing much.

I'd just love to see one of the left handers have a go at Swann, try and break the shackles, make Swann change. Hughes is an absolute block-a-thon, Khawaja not much better but at least he's got the push wide of mid-off shot in his repetoire, Hughes has nothing. If they can't at least get off strike, there's going to be trouble. Then again, I'm not sure Warner would go after Swann either, he certainly wasn't Mr Aggressive when facing Ashwin in India. One innings he got a few boundaries away, but most of the time he was blocking too.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top