4th Test: Australia v England at The MCG, 26-30 Dec

[ste_mc_efc]

The tiered structure won't work because only three nations (England, India and Australia) generate most of the revenue in cricket. Without these nations involved who will pay for lesser cricketing nations? They will need to get games against the cricketing financial powerhouses else they won't be able to sustain themselves. Even likes of New Zealand, Sri Lanka, Pakistan and West Indies struggle to sustain themselves without frequent series against those three and to expect lesser nations to sustain themselves without playing against the bigger three in unreasonable.

well with more competitive cricket being played and the matches having more meaning hopefully interest and revenues can grow long term.

I'm sure the money men could iron out some revenue splits amongst those in the competition. But then I guess we have now struck upon the real problem in cricket. People looking to line their pockets and looking after their own rather than looking out for the interests of Cricket.

 

[cricket_online]

well with more competitive cricket being played and the matches having more meaning hopefully interest and revenues can grow long term.

I'm sure the money men could iron out some revenue splits amongst those in the competition. But then I guess we have now struck upon the real problem in cricket. People looking to line their pockets and looking after their own rather than looking out for the interests of Cricket.

Good luck with that. I read an article somewhere that any series not involving England, India or Australia doesn't generate a profit and barely breaks even. All the more reason for new comers to get series against bigger teams if they want to sustain themselves in the longer run.

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The Windies are a bit more more that bunch a Caribbean countries - they may be a bit of insularity with them - but they are well connected historically, socially etc - so it was always easy for them to form a cricket team.

Ireland/Scotland/Netherlands don't have such a connection - thus the idea of them pooling resources to form a team is entirely implausible. Such a unusual drastic root isn't needed.

Well it's either that or they will not be able to play Test cricket I am afraid. A combined Irish & Scottish team (not sure about Dutch) would make sense coz of proximity to each other. After all ECB is English & Wales Cricket Board and I can't see why Ireland and Scotland can't come together to form ISCB (Ireland & Scotland Cricket Board).

 

[War]

Wales is part of the United Kingdom you know - which in some sport i.e the Olympics participates as one country.

Wales also don't have a serious cricket culture, so its a bit easier for Welsh people to play cricket for ENG without suddenly have a welsh identity crisis as the case is in football or rugby.

Plus its only in the last 10 years that ECB took up the ENG & Wales cricket board name - they basically only did that to acknowledge their development of cricket in the Wales area.

 

[cricket_online]

Wales is part of the United Kingdom you know - which in some sport i.e the Olympics participates as one country.

Wales also don't have a serious cricket culture, so its a bit easier for Welsh people to play cricket for ENG without suddenly have a welsh identity crisis as the case is in football or rugby.

Plus its only in the last 10 years that ECB took up the ENG & Wales cricket board name - they basically only did that to acknowledge their development of cricket in the Wales area.

Scotland and Ireland can do the same to acknowledge the realities of ICC and cricketing world. Nothing ever stays the same and you need to adapt accordingly. If joining resources gives you a better chance to succeed why not?

 

[War]

i'm more bringing it up because 3 years ago things some of us were worried would happen in the future were thought of as ridiculous, now given that they've happened it kinda lends some credence to things me and The Author have mentioned before and perhaps they shouldn't be thought of as quite so ridiculous.

tbh I only found that post because I was sure I'd tipped dockrell to be englands next spinner before and was seeing if I mentioned it here.

it was more in the context that if you remember back in 2011 the ICC was thinking of having 10 team world cups, I'm not sure if ireland are ready for test cricket, they sure as hell shouldn't be getting barred from world cups though.

It probably be good if ireland could play the odd test, I'm not for tiering but reduced schedules of smaller teams make sense. bangladesh played far too much test cricket in their early days. unfortunately pragmatism and the ICC don't exactly go hand in hand.

I don't remember the discussion, but your tipping then & in jest call of Dockrell to become the next ENG spinner didn't exactly come to pass since Briggs, Tredwell, Borthwick have been called up since then.

ECB are very conscious about accusations of poaching & would definitely not go out their way to get Dockrell - even if some in the ECB like me have noticed his talent & think about having him in the ENG set-up. He would have to turn his back on Ireland like Rankin did for ENG to take him.

ICC also didn't bar par Ireland from World cups - they simply made a very smart decision (one of the few ICC has made in recent years), but as usual the ICC which has no backbone collapsed to pressure when the associates started complaining.

After 36 years of world cup except for the odd upset (zim vs aus 83, ken vs wi 96, bang vs pak 99, ken vs sri 2003, ken in 03 semi's, ire vs eng 2011 etc) - the associates haven't made a serious impact.

The 50 over world cup should follow the 1992 world cup format the 9 teams in one group. Play 8 games. Teams 4 with the most points qualifies for finals. It would be like a advanced version of the champions trophy. Competitive games basically every day.

Second option would be add Zimbabwe make in 10 teams. Two groups of 5. 3 qualify for super 6, 2 eliminated. Top 4 qualify for semi's.

The T20 world cup could & should involve as much minnows as possible (16 teams, 4 groups) since that format & upset is more likely. The ICC should market the T20 world cup as such.

 

[C Boomer]

Full time member status for Ireland !

While I am not that naive to consider Ireland making an immediate impact on the international test arena, should they ever be granted full time member status, however they must be offered some kind of platform on which to prove their credentials!

It is very difficult for them as things presently stand, to show the world their worthy candidature for Test status when they have so few limited opportunities to play the longer version of the game!

So it is encouraging to read here the positive 'vibes' for a likely avenue for this to happen; ie More regular fixtures against England, the ODI 50 over game last September at Malahide ( see poem ' The Battle of Malahide ), was a roaring success for both rival nations, more than 10,000 supporters turned out for an end of season match, albeit a glamorous event for the home team!

I am further encouraged by the idea being mooted for a regular four day fixture between England v Ireland, this not only would be a great measuring stick as far as the top associate nation is concerned, but would be a positive guide for the England selectors, as to their team's form, helping to iron out any potential banana skins, either before, or in the middle of a current Test fixture!

Still whatever the outcome, while the word 'poach' as far as Ireland's finest players defecting to play internationally for England, may sound derisive, after all as a previous poster points out as things stand the protocol exists for that to legitimately happen, I would contend it is not the ideal solution for England and it certainly is counter-productive and demoralizing for all involved with Irish cricket and their long term values and ambitions !

"I rest my case your honour" !

 

[ste_mc_efc]

Good luck with that. I read an article somewhere that any series not involving England, India or Australia doesn't generate a profit and barely breaks even. All the more reason for new comers to get series against bigger teams if they want to sustain themselves in the longer run.

I guess my point here is how much profit do those series involve? and can that profit be distributed better to cover for the break-even/losing series? If it can, will that improve Cricket in the future?

Obviously the suits won't like giving up some of their piece of pie, that's a problem.

 

[War]

Scotland and Ireland can do the same to acknowledge the realities of ICC and cricketing world. Nothing ever stays the same and you need to adapt accordingly. If joining resources gives you a better chance to succeed why not?

Except that Scotland & Ireland are not a country - maybe if it was Northern Ireland, but overall i don't think such a drastic, usual measure needs to be taken to aid the associates in their progression into possible test cricket

They can play as singular nations & the ICC as i've mentioned on the previous pages, just needs to utilize cricket luxury of having 3 formats. Let the associates proves themselves via T20 & 50 overs first as team via more matches vs the bigger nations or the big nation A-teams, asses the nations feel for the sport - then make a decision later if they can play tests.

This method IMO would mean we would have a much better idea if the Ireland etc could be ready for tests.

Instead of the other method, where by advocating for them to get tests status now based on; vague sentimental reasons, not enough current cricket versus the major nations, unfair criticism of the ICC for being myopic towards allowing new test cricket teams - when its proven historically how difficult it has been for all nations to become good a test cricket.

 

[cricket_online]

I guess my point here is how much profit do those series involve? and can that profit be distributed better to cover for the break-even/losing series? If it can, will that improve Cricket in the future?

Obviously the suits won't like giving up some of their piece of pie, that's a problem.

That's the biggest problem and the reason why tiered structure wouldn't work. I can't see BCCI, ECB or CA sharing their profit with teams from say Tier 2 test structure.

 

[ste_mc_efc]

That's the biggest problem and the reason why tiered structure wouldn't work. I can't see BCCI, ECB or CA sharing their profit with teams from say Tier 2 test structure.

and this is where you need a side with men also wearing suits arguing that it's an investment in the future of cricket and future profits, or stuff like that.

 

[cricket_online]

Except that Scotland & Ireland are not a country - maybe if it was Northern Ireland, but overall i don't think such a drastic, usual measure needs to be taken to aid the associates in their progression into possible test cricket

They can play as singular nations & the ICC as i've mentioned on the previous pages, just needs to utilize cricket luxury of having 3 formats. Let the associates proves themselves via T20 & 50 overs first as team via more matches vs the bigger nations or the big nation A-teams, asses the nations feel for the sport - then make a decision later if they can play tests.

This method IMO would mean we would have a much better idea if the Ireland etc could be ready for tests.

Instead of the other method, where by advocating for them to get tests status now based on; vague sentimental reasons, not enough current cricket versus the major nations, unfair criticism of the ICC for being myopic towards allowing new test cricket teams - when its proven historically how difficult it has been for all nations to become good a test cricket.

IMO Ireland already did that. In 2007 WC they beat Pakistan & B'desh and made it to super 8s when heavy-weights such as India and Pakistan couldn't. In 2011 they again beat England and were competitive throughout against established teams. And recently they drew a 3 match odi series against Pakistan 1-1 IIRC with one match tied. If this isn't progress I don't know what is and they have made a much stronger case for being promoted to the next level.

If you are expecting a nation to be competitive from the get go it's not going to happen. Test cricket is a unique challenge and every new team will face challenges. I'm sure Ireland will struggle as well initially but I don't see them any worse than likes of B'desh and Zimbabwe in the longer format. It's a chicken and egg situation and it's time for ICC to put its money where its mouth is. Making noises about popularising cricket and spreading the game globally is one thing, but it's time when they actually start doing what they are preaching, i.e. show the world they are serious about increasing the core group of Test teams.

Adding Ireland to core group of Test nations will also have one more advantage. It will show the other associate nations that ICC is serious about spreading the game and helping the associate nations get to the next level. This should act as a shot in the arm for nations such as Afghanistan, Netherland, Kenya etc. and motivate them to perform better.

 

[War]

Yes i agree that to some degree Ireland in ODIs have been decent since the 2007 world cup - although they have lost some key players to ENG & retirement.

However i believe they are lacking 4-day cricket testing vs big nations, because even though players get picked on ODI form for tests, its a common understanding in cricket that the general successful players/teams in tests are those who do well in FC cricket/have a strong FC system.

This is where the ICC has to come in since i've always been a believer that A-team cricket should become more prominent part of the international calendar.

With not every country having strong first-class structures to prepare its players for international cricket, more A-team tours could help level the playing field and give national selectors a better guide, as to whether their fringe players could be ready for the highest level.

Similarly major nations A team 4-day matches would be a good way to judge to readiness of associate nations for potential test status. Ireland vs Windies A, ENG A, S Africa A, AUS A, IND A are matches that should have happened a long time ago IMO.

Also i'm not convinced about Ireland's population support for cricket. There is no guaranteed that this little talent period of cricketers they have produced isn't a "one off" like the Zimbabwe late 90s talented era of players or Kenya circa 2000-2003. If crowd support in the population isn't big & no strong domestic cricket system, you are not going to have a consistent amount of talent to choose from in the future.

 

[C Boomer]

The Battle of Malahide !

Yes i agree that to some degree Ireland in ODIs have been decent since the 2007 world cup - although they have lost some key players to ENG & retirement.

However i believe they are lacking 4-day cricket testing vs big nations, because even though players get picked on ODI form for tests, its a common understanding in cricket that the general successful players/teams in tests are those who do well in FC cricket/have a strong FC system.

This is where the ICC has to come in since i've always been a believer that A-team cricket should become more prominent part of the international calendar.

With not every country having strong first-class structures to prepare its players for international cricket. More A-team tours could help level the playing field and give national selectors a better guide as to whether their fringe players could be ready for the highest level.

Similarly major nations A team 4-day matches would be a good way to judge to readiness of associate nations for potential test status. Ireland vs Windies A, ENG A, S Africa A, AUS A, IND A are matches that should have happened a long time ago IMO.

Also i'm not convinced about Ireland's population support for cricket. There is no guaranteed that this little talent period of cricketers they have produced isn't a "one off" like the Zimbabwe late 90s talented era of players or Kenya circa 2000-2003. If crowd support and population isn't big & no strong domestic cricket system, you are not going to have a consistent amount of talent to choose from in the future.

See the above intro title, it is just one of many poems on the entertainment thread, C Boomer's cricket poetry....believe me, have no concerns with regards to Ireland's burgeoning support for cricket and their involvement !!

 

[barmyarmy]

Even if all that is true so what?
Why should test cricket be restricted like it is on a historical basis?

 

[cricket_online]

Yes i agree that to some degree Ireland in ODIs have been decent since the 2007 world cup - although they have lost some key players to ENG & retirement.

However i believe they are lacking 4-day cricket testing vs big nations, because even though players get picked on ODI form for tests, its a common understanding in cricket that the general successful players/teams in tests are those who do well in FC cricket/have a strong FC system.

This is where the ICC has to come in since i've always been a believer that A-team cricket should become more prominent part of the international calendar.

With not every country having strong first-class structures to prepare its players for international cricket, more A-team tours could help level the playing field and give national selectors a better guide, as to whether their fringe players could be ready for the highest level.

Similarly major nations A team 4-day matches would be a good way to judge to readiness of associate nations for potential test status. Ireland vs Windies A, ENG A, S Africa A, AUS A, IND A are matches that should have happened a long time ago IMO.

Also i'm not convinced about Ireland's population support for cricket. There is no guaranteed that this little talent period of cricketers they have produced isn't a "one off" like the Zimbabwe late 90s talented era of players or Kenya circa 2000-2003. If crowd support in the population isn't big & no strong domestic cricket system, you are not going to have a consistent amount of talent to choose from in the future.

If you don't encourage good performances the better players are bound to move on (county cricket & England) or retire and focus on another career. Playing A games and minor league cricket does not foot the bills. As for support base, if they don't see their team getting support from ICC and get to the next level, they are bound to move on. When they see their team part of core group of cricket teams, they are more likely to support their team as they will have more opportunity to see their team play cricket against top sides. Plus you are unlikely to see an exodus of good players to counties and England in general when they know they can play international cricket with Ireland.

IMO it's a make or break state with Ireland and if ICC doesn't encourage them soon they may well go the Kenya way. I would have liked Kenya to be given a promotion as well after their decent displays in 90s and early 2000s. They beat WI in 96 WC and reached semis in 2003 edition! They surely should have been given a promotion, if you will, and we would have had another decent cricketing side by now.

Kenya went the other way owing to ICC's apathy when even a WC semi spot didn't do anything for them and I hope Ireland don't go the same way. ICC has to learn the Kenya lesson and encourage Ireland now than wait for "right time" to get them to next level coz there will never be a perfect time. Zimbabwe was a different story and the problem wasn't their players or cricketing infrastructure or their fan base but politics. Mugabe's regime should be blamed for Zimbabwe's current situation and you can't equate it with Kenya or Ireland scenarios.