Ashes 2015 - Australia tour of England July/September 2015

[Umair7]

50 up :/

 

[PokerAce]

Right this one seems done and dusted. Aus will have a week to recover and come back on the 6th for save the series.

 

[bigred]

Who wants Bell to get out now? Some if the comments on here have been a joke recently.

 

[blockerdave]

Well looks like even I will have to admit Bell has played well this game.

He's still shit though[DOUBLEPOST=1438353026][/DOUBLEPOST]

Who wants Bell to get out now? Some if the comments on here have been a joke recently.

Me. Can he back it up? He scored a ton in WI and backed it up with precisely nothing. This takes his average last two years above 30... Whoopie do. Still not good enough.

 

[bigred]

Well looks like even I will have to admit Bell has played well this game.

He's still shit though[DOUBLEPOST=1438353026][/DOUBLEPOST]

Me. Can he back it up? He scored a ton in WI and backed it up with precisely nothing. This takes his average last two years above 30... Whoopie do. Still not good enough.

So you are honestly saying you wouldn't pick Bell at Trent Bridge?

Talking of Trent Bridge, I'd go with

1. Ali
2. Cook
3. Bell
4. Root
5. Bairstow
6. Stokes
7. Buttler
8. Woakes
9. Rashid/Wood
10. Broad
11. Finn

Lyon has really outclassed Moeen with the ball in this series, so I think I'd be keen to get Rashid in but if it looks like a typical Trent Bridge pitch then Wood should play.

There really are no genuine openers knocking on the door at the moment.

Hales doesn't open much in red ball cricket and hasn't scored big since May.

Robson never had it and never will.

Lees is having a poor season.

Compton is doing okay, but I doubt the selectors will ever go back to a man that was so outspoken and also so friendly with KP. Age isn't on his side either.

Stoneman is doing well in div 1 this year, but his career average isn't too clever.

Browne and Bell-Drummond seem to score a lot of runs, but that's in div 2.

Would any of these guys do better than Ali at 1? Possibly Hales in my opinion, but would prefer him to come in next summer.

 

[_Sam_]

I really don't like the thought of Ali opening personally, I think he'd flop against the new ball.

 

[PokerAce]

Ali at 8 (or is it 7) is such an assett for England that he should not be disturbed. He clearly has issues against the short ball, and that will be hard enough and no need to further expose him to the moving ball danger as well.

However to be honest, England have lost their most potent weapon and I don't see Australia losing to an England side sans Anderson.

Australia did look vulnerable with the bat, but England have worries of their own too, though Bell did redeem himself in this test.

 

[blockerdave]

So you are honestly saying you wouldn't pick Bell at Trent Bridge?

Talking of Trent Bridge, I'd go with

1. Ali
2. Cook
3. Bell
4. Root
5. Bairstow
6. Stokes
7. Buttler
8. Woakes
9. Rashid/Wood
10. Broad
11. Finn

Lyon has really outclassed Moeen with the ball in this series, so I think I'd be keen to get Rashid in but if it looks like a typical Trent Bridge pitch then Wood should play.

There really are no genuine openers knocking on the door at the moment.

Hales doesn't open much in red ball cricket and hasn't scored big since May.

Robson never had it and never will.

Lees is having a poor season.

Compton is doing okay, but I doubt the selectors will ever go back to a man that was so outspoken and also so friendly with KP. Age isn't on his side either.

Stoneman is doing well in div 1 this year, but his career average isn't too clever.

Browne and Bell-Drummond seem to score a lot of runs, but that's in div 2.

Would any of these guys do better than Ali at 1? Possibly Hales in my opinion, but would prefer him to come in next summer.

Well no... I'd never have had him in this side, but have to accept that you can't drop him off the back of his performance in this match (though his career is full of that - making just enough runs to keep in the side)... I want him out in the sense that I don't believe England will improve with him in the side: he is an inconsistent, mentally flaky player who is in a deep 2 year slump - you cannot carry that as a senior player. In the short to medium term I believe England will remain an inconsistent side for as long as he is in the team.

I'm not sure I share your confidence in Moeen: he's done well with the bat this series, but I don't see how he could be contemplated as an opener. Especially given the amount of people we've been through in the last few years, we need a long terms solution and not be picking someone on a "he can't be worse than the others" basis. If you did that, and Moeen struggled with the bat and continued being outbowled by Lyon, you might be destroying a potentially good cricketer. No idea who that long term solution is... interesting what you say about Lees, because I was thinking that yesterday: when Root came into the side, there was all this talk that Yorkshire had another star waiting in the wings in Lees, in the meantime we've seen Bairstow, Ballance and Lyth but Lees has dropped off the radar.

I think Woakes will come in for Anderson as he's more like for like and offers batting: England are conservative and we only need to draw the last two and so England will look to bat huge I think. I'm not sure if they'll drop Lyth but he must be under the microscope. Probably only the lack of a compelling alternative might save him.

 

[richowebbo]

Well no... I'd never have had him in this side, but have to accept that you can't drop him off the back of his performance in this match (though his career is full of that - making just enough runs to keep in the side)... I want him out in the sense that I don't believe England will improve with him in the side: he is an inconsistent, mentally flaky player who is in a deep 2 year slump - you cannot carry that as a senior player. In the short to medium term I believe England will remain an inconsistent side for as long as he is in the team.

I'm not sure I share your confidence in Moeen: he's done well with the bat this series, but I don't see how he could be contemplated as an opener. Especially given the amount of people we've been through in the last few years, we need a long terms solution and not be picking someone on a "he can't be worse than the others" basis. If you did that, and Moeen struggled with the bat and continued being outbowled by Lyon, you might be destroying a potentially good cricketer. No idea who that long term solution is... interesting what you say about Lees, because I was thinking that yesterday: when Root came into the side, there was all this talk that Yorkshire had another star waiting in the wings in Lees, in the meantime we've seen Bairstow, Ballance and Lyth but Lees has dropped off the radar.

I think Woakes will come in for Anderson as he's more like for like and offers batting: England are conservative and we only need to draw the last two and so England will look to bat huge I think. I'm not sure if they'll drop Lyth but he must be under the microscope. Probably only the lack of a compelling alternative might save him.

Good post Dave. I mentioned Lees a few weeks ago. He is a very good player and I think if Lyth is dropped (I don't think he should be as we have been through too many) Lees should come in.

Moeen is a decent player. He's not a front line spinner and this is something we will miss on proper turning pitches. His batting is good, but unless you mess about with the order, he has nowhere to go. It is harsh to judge Bairstow on that innings, as he got an absolutely unplayable ball from MJ, who bowled supremely in ths first innings. Our second best batsmen of the series fell first ball to him in this spell.

Woakes should come in for Anderson as he is the best swing bowler. I do like Woods, but I've got massive concerns about his fitness. It was worrying how much his pace dropped off. There is no way you can drop Finn after this spell. I said before this test that Finn should be given a chance because he is genuinely fast, and some people on this forum said "yeah he can reach 89-90 once every 2 overs" but he's been superb. The shape of his deliveries were beautiful. Exactly how a fast bowler should bowl. Aiming for the top of off with the odd short one and the odd yorker.

Bell was good, and as you said earlier, you can't deny that. I don't think Bell is shit, as you said, but he is certainly in a bit of a hole. He needs to play well at Trent Bridge. If Lyth is dropped, I'd like to see Butler open and Taylor brought in to the squad. because I don't think Lees will be picked just yet.

Overall, a fantastic performance by the England bowlers and Bell, Root and Moeen with the bat. Australia were very poor and very flat. Either they got to cocky after the last match or there is something else going on. Rumours of discontent at Haddin being dropped could maybe be true.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

@PokerAce- I wouldn't call any series a 'preference' series. The Ashes in the 90's and early 00's were pretty much pathetic. I think, the way NZ are playing right now, it would be good to have them play at least 3 match series against ENG, SA, AUS.

The most important thing is competition. You want two competitive teams and critically, a good surface. I think, the second test had a disaster of a pitch and if you want good, quality cricket, it doesn't get better than Eng/NZ this year. I've been very disappointed with the Ashes this year. Just how the dice rolls sometimes. The teams have either been switched on or switched off.

I'd really like an Indo-Pak series. It's our Ashes. However, as I emphasized earlier, you need to monitor the surfaces. India and Pakistan have produced a few shockers against each other.

NZ and SA against any team in a minimum 3 match series. Unfortunately, SL, WI and BAN don't cut it for me.

 

[bigred]

@PokerAce- I wouldn't call any series a 'preference' series. The Ashes in the 90's and early 00's were pretty much pathetic. I think, the way NZ are playing right now, it would be good to have them play at least 3 match series against ENG, SA, AUS.

The most important thing is competition. You want two competitive teams and critically, a good surface. I think, the second test had a disaster of a pitch and if you want good, quality cricket, it doesn't get better than Eng/NZ this year. I've been very disappointed with the Ashes this year. Just how the dice rolls sometimes. The teams have either been switched on or switched off.

I'd really like an Indo-Pak series. It's our Ashes. However, as I emphasized earlier, you need to monitor the surfaces. India and Pakistan have produced a few shockers against each other.

NZ and SA against any team in a minimum 3 match series. Unfortunately, SL, WI and BAN don't cut it for me.

I think a 3 match test series held in England between India and Pakistan would be great for the game. Neither team could be accused of producing a favourable pitch. Every day would be full to capacity. You could take it to some if the grounds that don't always get a test match.

I'd imagine Pakistan would be up for it but I doubt India would, as they have a shocking recent record here and have no seamers to exploit conditions.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

Well no... I'd never have had him in this side, but have to accept that you can't drop him off the back of his performance in this match (though his career is full of that - making just enough runs to keep in the side)... I want him out in the sense that I don't believe England will improve with him in the side: he is an inconsistent, mentally flaky player who is in a deep 2 year slump - you cannot carry that as a senior player. In the short to medium term I believe England will remain an inconsistent side for as long as he is in the team.

I'm not sure I share your confidence in Moeen: he's done well with the bat this series, but I don't see how he could be contemplated as an opener. Especially given the amount of people we've been through in the last few years, we need a long terms solution and not be picking someone on a "he can't be worse than the others" basis. If you did that, and Moeen struggled with the bat and continued being outbowled by Lyon, you might be destroying a potentially good cricketer. No idea who that long term solution is... interesting what you say about Lees, because I was thinking that yesterday: when Root came into the side, there was all this talk that Yorkshire had another star waiting in the wings in Lees, in the meantime we've seen Bairstow, Ballance and Lyth but Lees has dropped off the radar.

I think Woakes will come in for Anderson as he's more like for like and offers batting: England are conservative and we only need to draw the last two and so England will look to bat huge I think. I'm not sure if they'll drop Lyth but he must be under the microscope. Probably only the lack of a compelling alternative might save him.

I'm not going to debate with you on Ian Bell, because frankly, you and I must be bored by now. However, to your surprise may be, I do agree with you to some extent.

How can you guys not see the contribution of Moeen Ali? He has played two critical innings and there's no way in my opinion he can be dropped. Just like you, I wouldn't open with him. That has disaster written all over it. What England need to do, for now is to not panic. I'd not do too much tic tac toe for the remainder of the series. But, Ali has to bat 7 and Buttler has to bat 6. I think, they're both a position too low for their talent. Also, with Moeen Ali @ 7, you're looking at 3 genuine quicks, 1 batting all rounder that bowls 85mph in Stokes, a front line spinner (whoever that may be), a handy off spinner and dangerous no 7 in Moeen Ali and a pretty handy part timer in Root. I think, if England have to become the best in the world, they have to believe it first. They must dare to go with this combination. It doesn't just have the best team in the world written all over it, I think it has potential to be one of the all time best teams ever considering the age all these guys are at. I think, Root has to has to bat 3. He has the defense, the attack and the world at his feet. The guy is ridiculously good and he can control the game from 3. For the time being, Bairstow 4 and Stokes 5. They need to find an opener, period.

The line I've highlighted in bold is like a disaster waiting to happen. England must look to win and attack. The moment you think draw, the Aussies will eat you alive. They need to be as positive as they've been. Attack. Attack. Attack. If anything, they should draw inspiration from the 5-0 drubbing. You have someone down on the mat, keep them down and since it's the Aussies, better still drive them beneath the ground. Just don't pee on the pitch at the oval if you win the Ashes. That's not cricket.

 

[CerealKiller]

I think a 3 match test series held in England between India and Pakistan would be great for the game. Neither team could be accused of producing a favourable pitch

It's impossible in a test match between asian teams for the home side to produce a favourable pitch , since the conditions are pretty much the same everywhere in the subcontinent (with a few exceptions)

 

[PokerAce]

@PokerAce- I wouldn't call any series a 'preference' series. The Ashes in the 90's and early 00's were pretty much pathetic. I think, the way NZ are playing right now, it would be good to have them play at least 3 match series against ENG, SA, AUS.

The most important thing is competition. You want two competitive teams and critically, a good surface. I think, the second test had a disaster of a pitch and if you want good, quality cricket, it doesn't get better than Eng/NZ this year. I've been very disappointed with the Ashes this year. Just how the dice rolls sometimes. The teams have either been switched on or switched off.

I'd really like an Indo-Pak series. It's our Ashes. However, as I emphasized earlier, you need to monitor the surfaces. India and Pakistan have produced a few shockers against each other.

NZ and SA against any team in a minimum 3 match series. Unfortunately, SL, WI and BAN don't cut it for me.

No thats the point with the Ashes, its a continuing story, the next chapter of which is written every two years. So even if you get a few boring or one side results, the overall story still builds up, and so when the tables are reversed, it adds to a great story. Which is why when Eng did finally bear Australia, it was such a great victory because it had in the backdrop the story of England being beaten over and over again, and hence the comeback was sweet. Those Aus dominated Ashes were perhaps not great to watch for neutrals at the time, but when Eng finally won, all those Aus dominated Ashes suddenly found new context, and fit in perfectly with the story. Taken alone the result and series were still great, but when put in the context of a regular rivalry with over a 100 year history, the series just goes to another level.

That history and a sense of epic story telling is something no series can match. You talk about teams like NZ being competitive today, and while they are, but those teams will soon go into a phase of transition and will no longer be as strong and then the value of the series with them will fade away. A series with NZ 5 yrs ago was not a premium series, and soon when they go into a phase of transition it won't be one again. With the Ashes though, because of the history, there is never going to be an Ashes that is not going to be important, because each edition adds to the story which is more than 100 yrs old, and a battle that is never ending.

No series can therefore compare to the Ashes. Ind-Pak series could and should have been our Ashes, but Ind-Pak series don't happen regularly, they are not a continuous story like the Ashes, and no great story can afford to be a stop-start one.

Also to be fair there are too many off-field issues for Ind-Pak to ever play bilateral series regularly. Can you imagine a premiere regular bilateral sporting even event between Israel and Palestine. While Ind-Pak thing is not as bad as Isr-Pal, but Ind-Pak is still one of those long running issues in the world. So I really doubt we will ever get our Ashes. Till then there is always the Border-Gavasker Trophy :P

 

[richowebbo]

I'm not going to debate with you on Ian Bell, because frankly, you and I must be bored by now. However, to your surprise may be, I do agree with you to some extent.

How can you guys not see the contribution of Moeen Ali? He has played two critical innings and there's no way in my opinion he can be dropped. Just like you, I wouldn't open with him. That has disaster written all over it. What England need to do, for now is to not panic. I'd not do too much tic tac toe for the remainder of the series. But, Ali has to bat 7 and Buttler has to bat 6. I think, they're both a position too low for their talent. Also, with Moeen Ali @ 7, you're looking at 3 genuine quicks, 1 batting all rounder that bowls 85mph in Stokes, a front line spinner (whoever that may be), a handy off spinner and dangerous no 7 in Moeen Ali and a pretty handy part timer in Root. I think, if England have to become the best in the world, they have to believe it first. They must dare to go with this combination. It doesn't just have the best team in the world written all over it, I think it has potential to be one of the all time best teams ever considering the age all these guys are at. I think, Root has to has to bat 3. He has the defense, the attack and the world at his feet. The guy is ridiculously good and he can control the game from 3. For the time being, Bairstow 4 and Stokes 5. They need to find an opener, period.

The line I've highlighted in bold is like a disaster waiting to happen. England must look to win and attack. The moment you think draw, the Aussies will eat you alive. They need to be as positive as they've been. Attack. Attack. Attack. If anything, they should draw inspiration from the 5-0 drubbing. You have someone down on the mat, keep them down and since it's the Aussies, better still drive them beneath the ground. Just don't pee on the pitch at the oval if you win the Ashes. That's not cricket.

I don't think its about Moeen being dropped. Its more about where he fits in. Can he open in tests? We don't know. I, for one, don't think Lyth should be dropped, but he needs stern words. His last dismissal was probably the only good ball he's been out to in this series. The rest have been silly shots. He needs to learn to take his time.

But on Moeen, he is not a good enough bowler to get in the side on this alone, and we need a front line spinner. Look at the damage Lyon did. So, do you bring in Rashid (who isn't that great) and drop Bairstow for Moeen? I don't think there was anything Bairstow could have done for his wicket. It was an absolute snorter from MJ. Or do you drop Bell on the back of that performance? Although saying that, his first dismissal was very tame and he should have been gone for 20 in the second. Its where to fit Moeen in more than anything. The other option is to drop Butler and let Bairstow keep, but Butlers glove work has been superb and he is a very good batsmen. I'd like to see him open actually.