Australia test, ODI, T20 teams discussion thread

[sifter132]

^Haha, I loved the tongue in cheek work in that one.

Also read some good stuff towards the end of this article from Malcolm Knox:
Ashes: Malcolm Knox

He highlights that it won't be long before the legends of Aussie cricket ie. the players from 90s and 00s will be vaulted into high positions and seen as the saviours of Aussie cricket. Also mentions how that didn't exactly work out for the West Indies...if your talent isn't there, often it doesn't matter who is running things.

Pathetic to see Australia play like this.I lost interest in the sport courtesy DECLINE OF MY MIGHTY AUSSIES.

So what about Australia being bowled out for 47 (and being 9/21) vs SA in 2011? Not bad enough? What about losing 4-0 in India? Not bad enough?

 

[vaibhavtewatia]

So what about Australia being bowled out for 47 (and being 9/21) vs SA in 2011?

Each and every team which went to RSA after India in 2010 has been getting out on pretty much the same scores in the first tests.

 

[War]

^Haha, I loved the tongue in cheek work in that one.

Also read some good stuff towards the end of this article from Malcolm Knox:
Ashes: Malcolm Knox

He highlights that it won't be long before the legends of Aussie cricket ie. the players from 90s and 00s will be vaulted into high positions and seen as the saviours of Aussie cricket. Also mentions how that didn't exactly work out for the West Indies...if your talent isn't there, often it doesn't matter who is running things.

They might not have a choice but to include those former legends, even if the talent pool dries up.

One administrative position i certainly think team does not need is the role Pat Howard is playing. He should have been sacked along with Arthur.

 

[War]

Australia Cricket News: Five-day Sheffield Shield matches mooted | ESPN Cricinfo

Hmm interesting proposal this.

 

[sifter132]

Might it get spinners involved and batsmen batting longer? Ye Gods!

You could only really try it out I guess and see how it goes. I think part of the idea of Tests being 5 days vs domestics usually being 4 days was a matter of quality. Test quality batsmen could last a bit longer and make bigger scores. The other factor of course was results. If you've got 2 important teams going at each other, better to have your game for 5 rather than 4 days to try and encourage a result.

I'm glad that this is being raised as a factor though. I always laughed loudly when England partly blamed their 50 over World Cup failings on the fact that their competition was 40 overs. Surely the same thing applies to Tests, and getting them the same length could only help. That's why England increasing their county stuff from 3 to 4 days was very helpful in my view.

 

[War]

Ye thats the only issue i guess. Potentially increasing the shield to 5 day games all around may not really help the problem, because as things stand indeed the 6 shield teams don't have the quality to last 5 days.

 

[War]

2014 T20 & 2015 W-Cup squad set-up

Well while the ODI series in India was irrelevant in the larger scheme of things, it did reveal some solid details IMO about key players & how they might fit into the squad ahead of the T20 world cup next year & of course the home world cup in 2015.

T20:

Warner, Finch, Watson, Bailey, Maxwell, Haddin, M Marsh, Faulkner, O'Keefe, Coulter-Nile, Johnson


Smith, Henriques, Starc, McKay

What makes a top T20 team IMO is a long batting line-up & bowling attack with at least 6 solid bowling options. The latter is especially important because unlike ODI's where many teams have gotten away with using part-time as 5th & 6th bowlers - in T20 such bowlers are targeted.

Thus the more trustworthy bowling options - the easier it is restrict modern day batting units. The above proposed AUS XI has that in abundance.

AUS also don't have a quality limited overs spinner, Doherty is not good enough. While Ahmed is still i work in progress. I certainly won't risk Ahmed for the T20 W-Cup & this is where i feel O'Keefe could be a very useful spin-bowling all-rounder in Bangladesh conditions.

ODI:

Finch, Warner, Watson, Clarke, Bailey, Maxwell, Haddin, Faulkner, Johnson, McKay, Starc

Voges, Smith/M Marsh, Ahmed, Coulter-Nile

With Finch finally looking the part in international cricket & Warner seemingly looking himself again back in domestic cricket - AUS should have arguably the most destructive top 3 in ODI's (only India wih Sharma/Dhawan/Kohli can compare or better) in limited overs cricket, for both these world cups.

Ahmed should be the ODI spinner for now, i reckon under Clarke's guide he can be used well as an attacking option, but he re should only play if the conditions totally suite because he still has a year to potentially make the spot his own.

 

[Shift]

I havent saw clarke in this ind vs aus, he was there?

 

[icyman]

Clarke was unavailable due to a back strain. I do not see him leading Australia for long. What they could do with him is ask him to lead the Test unit and leave the ODI team in Bailey's hands.
Bailey's captaincy was quite impressive and the team has also performed well under pressure in India. With Clarke's erratic health, it could be troublesome for the Aussies to rely upon him. Ideally yhey would be looking forth to him to lead them in the 2015 WC. Personally, I am in favor of George Bailey handling the mantle.

 

[War]

While Clarke's back injury is indeed a problem that could well and cut short his career, i'd still keep him has ODI captain with the 2015 W-Cup in mind once his back issues doesn't get noticeably worse in the coming year.

 

[War]

Tweaking the AUS T20 team

Well after some real dominate performances in test vs ENG & S Africa, AUS were slightly brought down to earth with their world T20 performances.

Usually AUS play pretty poor in the format & Ive complained before about past world T20 squad selections - but I thought the squad selection was the best this time around. Picking Hodge was particularly wise.

But AUS old deficienes versus spin, maybe a lack of Mitchell Johnson & their lack of strong spin based attack sort of the hurt them. The latter was particularly key, since its becoming fairly obvious in this early years of international & domestic T20s that the teams with the best spin attack usually do the best in T20s.

The next T20 W Cup is in India, so somehow AUS have utilize guys like Lyon & O'Keefe in the team & hope guys like Murihead & Fawad Ahmed improve.

So new look T20 team/squad would be this:

Warner, Finch, Watson, Bailey, Maxwell, M Marsh, Wade, Faulkner, O'Keefe, Johnson, Lyon

Smith, Christian/Henriques, Starc/Pattinson, Murihead

 

[NoLeName]

T20

The problem with Australian selectors in recent times is the pigeon-holing of certain players into only one format. My prime example would be Nathan Lyon - he made his name in the BBL back in 2011, and would be in my opinion our best T20 spinner, yet hasn't played a T20I. I'd argue he should be playing ODIs as well.

I'm not sure Mitch Marsh is quite ready for international cricket yet - even T20s - he's a bit too inconsistent with the bat and can be very expensive with the ball. Definitely still a good prospect for the future though. I'd say Dan Christian or Chris Lynn should fill Hodge's spot

Brad Haddin has looked below par in the T20s he's played over the past six months, I definitely think it's time to give Wadey a go at least in the T20s.

Surprisingly, I think the pace bowlers is actually the area we are lacking in T20I cricket. In particular we have rarely picked bowlers who have mastered multiple variations effectively. I'd say John Hastings and Benny Laughlin would be decent shouts, and Jackson Bird was incredible throughout the BBL. Mitchell Starc has performed well in the past but he just wasn't on target during the T20 WC and needs some time back in state cricket to get back his game.

My T20 squad would look something like this:

1. Finch
2. Warner
3. Watson
4. Maxwell
5. Bailey (c)
6. Lynn
7. Wade (wk)
8. Hastings
9. Johnson
10. Laughlin
11. Lyon

White, Christian, Faulkner/Bird, Muirhead

Steve Smith was unlucky to miss out on this one.


ODI

I think our biggest weakness against England this summer was definitely our bowling attack. We chopped and changed and never decided on at least a consistent base. Coulter-Nile is still developing in the international arena, and needs some time to lose the nerves and perform. With Johnson's pace, you know he's gonna go for a few and therefore has to be a real wicket-taker to be in the side. Clint McKay is always performing for the ODI side and although I think he's nearing the end, I'd hope he can last until the world cup. He has been our next Nathan Bracken over the past couple of years. James Faulkner is the real toughie - his finishing with the bat has obviously been vital over the past couple series but his bowling has been poor in comparison. Josh Hazlewood has been a consistent performer at domestic level and could be worth a punt, but I'd go for an even further left field selection. I'd consider Jackson Bird. He may only have played 7 domestic one day games but I think his McGrath-esque consistent line and length could restrict the runs and force the batsman to take risks as he did in the BBL. His style of bowler is the exact type we're missing. I think Doherty has been declining in form over the past couple series and it may be an idea to bring in Nathan Lyon instead.

I think the top six kinda select themselves. Warner and Finch are the obvious opening pair, and Watson at 3 provides the team with not only aggressive batting but also a deadly consistent bowler which is what we need. Clarke at 4 and Bailey at 5 are no-doubters, and Maxwell should be 6 because he is one of the most talented batsman in the country and he can speed through his overs very economically. The first-choice keeper would probably still be Haddin, with Wade next in line. I don't think Sam Whiteman is explosive enough to play one day cricket, or at least not at 7. If he can develop his power game he could be Haddin's successor. Steve Smith should be the next batsman if anyone in the top 5 is unavailable (Watson can open if one of the openers don't play). Chris Lynn and Tom Cooper are players to look at for the future.

1. Warner
2. Finch
3. Watson
4. Clarke (c)
5. Bailey
6. Maxwell
7. Haddin (wk)
8. Faulkner/McKay
9. Johnson
10. Lyon
11. Bird

Lynn, Smith, Christian, Coulter-Nile


Test

We need to sort out our batting order. The openers are set in stone for the moment. I'm not convinced with Doolan. I'm not entirely convinced with Marsh either, but he played particularly well in the first SA test. Phil Hughes has got to be close, and I'd like to see him given another shot. Our next test series is against Pakistan so it'd be a great test for him to see how he can handle the spin. Clarke, Smith and Watson are pretty much set in stone as well. One name who'll be thrown around for the Pakistan tour is Glenn Maxwell: he's one of the better players of spin and could be used as a second spinner. Add to that the fact that he had a great Shield season and he has a pretty compelling case. He's definitely talented enough, he just needs to develop more maturity in his batting so he limits throwing his wicket away. Haddin is the obvious keeper. With Sam Whiteman going on the upcoming Australia A tour, some are suggesting he may be Haddin's test successor. He's got a great technique and can play some beautiful strokes. I'd like to see him have another consistent Shield season first though and hit a first class century. I'd still consider Chris Hartley the next best keeper in Australia, but I doubt he'll ever get a chance.

Spin wise Nathan Lyon is the obvious selection. For the Pakistan tour I'd like to see Steve O'Keefe finally rewarded for his consistent Shield success and should be taken as the back-up spinner.

Mitchell Johnson and Ryan Harris cannot be left out. That final slot will realistically be fought out between Peter Siddle and James Pattinson. At this stage I'd go for Pattinson given the 10km/h difference between the two, and the fact that Pattinson was the spearhead less than a year ago before he got injured. Sids used to bowl 140s and if he can get back up there then maybe he can reclaim his spot. In Pakistan however, you'd have to consider playing two spinners if you don't play Maxwell. So if Hughes/Doolan/Marsh plays, you'd probably pick O'Keefe. But if Maxwell plays, you'd pick Pattinson. If I was picking the team for the Australian summer, I'd go with this:

1. Warner
2. Rogers
3. Hughes
4. Clarke (c)
5. Smith
6. Watson
7. Haddin (wk)
8. Johnson
9. Harris
10. Pattinson
11. Lyon

Marsh, Maxwell, Siddle/Bird, O'Keefe

 

[War]

T20

The problem with Australian selectors in recent times is the pigeon-holing of certain players into only one format. My prime example would be Nathan Lyon - he made his name in the BBL back in 2011, and would be in my opinion our best T20 spinner, yet hasn't played a T20I. I'd argue he should be playing ODIs as well.

I'm not sure Mitch Marsh is quite ready for international cricket yet - even T20s - he's a bit too inconsistent with the bat and can be very expensive with the ball. Definitely still a good prospect for the future though. I'd say Dan Christian or Chris Lynn should fill Hodge's spot

Brad Haddin has looked below par in the T20s he's played over the past six months, I definitely think it's time to give Wadey a go at least in the T20s.

Surprisingly, I think the pace bowlers is actually the area we are lacking in T20I cricket. In particular we have rarely picked bowlers who have mastered multiple variations effectively. I'd say John Hastings and Benny Laughlin would be decent shouts, and Jackson Bird was incredible throughout the BBL. Mitchell Starc has performed well in the past but he just wasn't on target during the T20 WC and needs some time back in state cricket to get back his game.

My T20 squad would look something like this:

1. Finch
2. Warner
3. Watson
4. Maxwell
5. Bailey (c)
6. Lynn
7. Wade (wk)
8. Hastings
9. Johnson
10. Laughlin
11. Lyon

White, Christian, Faulkner/Bird, Muirhead

Steve Smith was unlucky to miss out on this one.


ODI

I think our biggest weakness against England this summer was definitely our bowling attack. We chopped and changed and never decided on at least a consistent base. Coulter-Nile is still developing in the international arena, and needs some time to lose the nerves and perform. With Johnson's pace, you know he's gonna go for a few and therefore has to be a real wicket-taker to be in the side. Clint McKay is always performing for the ODI side and although I think he's nearing the end, I'd hope he can last until the world cup. He has been our next Nathan Bracken over the past couple of years. James Faulkner is the real toughie - his finishing with the bat has obviously been vital over the past couple series but his bowling has been poor in comparison. Josh Hazlewood has been a consistent performer at domestic level and could be worth a punt, but I'd go for an even further left field selection. I'd consider Jackson Bird. He may only have played 7 domestic one day games but I think his McGrath-esque consistent line and length could restrict the runs and force the batsman to take risks as he did in the BBL. His style of bowler is the exact type we're missing. I think Doherty has been declining in form over the past couple series and it may be an idea to bring in Nathan Lyon instead.

I think the top six kinda select themselves. Warner and Finch are the obvious opening pair, and Watson at 3 provides the team with not only aggressive batting but also a deadly consistent bowler which is what we need. Clarke at 4 and Bailey at 5 are no-doubters, and Maxwell should be 6 because he is one of the most talented batsman in the country and he can speed through his overs very economically. The first-choice keeper would probably still be Haddin, with Wade next in line. I don't think Sam Whiteman is explosive enough to play one day cricket, or at least not at 7. If he can develop his power game he could be Haddin's successor. Steve Smith should be the next batsman if anyone in the top 5 is unavailable (Watson can open if one of the openers don't play). Chris Lynn and Tom Cooper are players to look at for the future.

1. Warner
2. Finch
3. Watson
4. Clarke (c)
5. Bailey
6. Maxwell
7. Haddin (wk)
8. Faulkner/McKay
9. Johnson
10. Lyon
11. Bird

Lynn, Smith, Christian, Coulter-Nile


Test

We need to sort out our batting order. The openers are set in stone for the moment. I'm not convinced with Doolan. I'm not entirely convinced with Marsh either, but he played particularly well in the first SA test. Phil Hughes has got to be close, and I'd like to see him given another shot. Our next test series is against Pakistan so it'd be a great test for him to see how he can handle the spin. Clarke, Smith and Watson are pretty much set in stone as well. One name who'll be thrown around for the Pakistan tour is Glenn Maxwell: he's one of the better players of spin and could be used as a second spinner. Add to that the fact that he had a great Shield season and he has a pretty compelling case. He's definitely talented enough, he just needs to develop more maturity in his batting so he limits throwing his wicket away. Haddin is the obvious keeper. With Sam Whiteman going on the upcoming Australia A tour, some are suggesting he may be Haddin's test successor. He's got a great technique and can play some beautiful strokes. I'd like to see him have another consistent Shield season first though and hit a first class century. I'd still consider Chris Hartley the next best keeper in Australia, but I doubt he'll ever get a chance.

Spin wise Nathan Lyon is the obvious selection. For the Pakistan tour I'd like to see Steve O'Keefe finally rewarded for his consistent Shield success and should be taken as the back-up spinner.

Mitchell Johnson and Ryan Harris cannot be left out. That final slot will realistically be fought out between Peter Siddle and James Pattinson. At this stage I'd go for Pattinson given the 10km/h difference between the two, and the fact that Pattinson was the spearhead less than a year ago before he got injured. Sids used to bowl 140s and if he can get back up there then maybe he can reclaim his spot. In Pakistan however, you'd have to consider playing two spinners if you don't play Maxwell. So if Hughes/Doolan/Marsh plays, you'd probably pick O'Keefe. But if Maxwell plays, you'd pick Pattinson. If I was picking the team for the Australian summer, I'd go with this:

1. Warner
2. Rogers
3. Hughes
4. Clarke (c)
5. Smith
6. Watson
7. Haddin (wk)
8. Johnson
9. Harris
10. Pattinson
11. Lyon

Marsh, Maxwell, Siddle/Bird, O'Keefe

Top post, just a few thoughts my friend.

On Lyon, well yea he first came to prominence during the Big Bash, but lets not forget the AUS selectors aim with Lyon was always to develop him into a very good test spinner.

The selectors were playing musical chairs with spinners after Warne/MacGill left. They saw something in Lyon, so they basically had to let him secure his skills in test first, b4 he was used in ODIs/T20 for AUS. Now I have no prob with him playing limited overs.

Overall yes Indeed AUS have made general poor selection in T20 since the 2007 cup. AUS & windies players for example have been the most dominant foreign players in the IPL & yet AUS T20 tournament & international record is so bad.

Guys like Dirk Nannes should have been fixtures T20 from the start really, the fact that he was allowed to play for Netherlands was dumb.

On tests team - think Watson has to be open or bat @ 3. He has shown in his career that he is a more effective player in the top 3 than anywhere in the middle order.

I'm not sure that Siddle has lost pace either. Yea in that 2nd test versus S Africa recently, his pace was down - but I think its a temporary thing to be honest.

Not sure about O'Keefe as a test bowler also, but he certainly should be in the the limited overs teams - especially the T20 side.

 

[NoLeName]

On tests team - think Watson has to be open or bat @ 3. He has shown in his career that he is a more effective player in the top 3 than anywhere in the middle order.

Maybe so, but his performances are not consistent enough to be a number 3. His gameplan in South Africa of attacking the bowlers is also a much more effective gameplan for a number six. Our number 3 needs to be someone who is not limited to one dimension and can play in any position. I believe Hughes is much more of an all-round player, although even he should be opening once Rogers retires.

I'm not sure that Siddle has lost pace either. Yea in that 2nd test versus S Africa recently, his pace was down - but I think its a temporary thing to be honest.

I disagree - Siddle's pace this whole season has been low 130s. Two seasons ago, when he was the spearhead of the attack, he was bowling mid 140s. Boof wants him back up there, which is fair enough too. His incremental seam and swing is pretty pointless if the batsman has more than enough time to see the movement and adjust.

Not sure about O'Keefe as a test bowler also, but he certainly should be in the the limited overs teams - especially the T20 side.

O'Keefe has been the leading wicket-taking spinner in the Shield for something crazy like five years running. He has been incredibly consistent and his record confirms this. He averages about 24 in first class cricket, compared to his meagre List A average of 67. His T20 economy rate is alright, but his average is again only 30. Contrary to popular belief, first class is actually his best format and has been for some years. This is due to his consistency; he just does not give the batsman a break. It's about time the selectors removed his pigeon-hole and just selected him.

 

[War]

Maybe so, but his performances are not consistent enough to be a number 3. His gameplan in South Africa of attacking the bowlers is also a much more effective gameplan for a number six. Our number 3 needs to be someone who is not limited to one dimension and can play in any position. I believe Hughes is much more of an all-round player, although even he should be opening once Rogers retires.

Yea but Watson is poor starter vs spin & batting @ # 6, that problem would be readily exposed.

Watson really should be opening, much less being @ # 3. That's where his best results in tests have been really, where he averaged 40+.

I'm also a big fan of Hughes getting a test recall, if Rogers was to start struggling then he could come right in.

I disagree - Siddle's pace this whole season has been low 130s. Two seasons ago, when he was the spearhead of the attack, he was bowling mid 140s. Boof wants him back up there, which is fair enough too. His incremental seam and swing is pretty pointless if the batsman has more than enough time to see the movement and adjust.

Two seasons? Ha na man, throughout the Ashes Siddle was bowling high 130s/early 140s all the time with ease.

As i said it was in the Port Elizabeth test 2nd innings, when AUS followed on when all the quick bowlers was down on pace.

South Africa v Australia, 3rd Test, Cape Town : Siddle asked to regain his pace | Cricket News | South Africa v Australia | ESPN Cricinfo

O'Keefe has been the leading wicket-taking spinner in the Shield for something crazy like five years running. He has been incredibly consistent and his record confirms this. He averages about 24 in first class cricket, compared to his meagre List A average of 67. His T20 economy rate is alright, but his average is again only 30. Contrary to popular belief, first class is actually his best format and has been for some years. This is due to his consistency; he just does not give the batsman a break. It's about time the selectors removed his pigeon-hole and just selected him.

Ye I'm aware of his very good FC record. But the times i've seen him play international for AUS in limited overs, I've always wondered how a bowler who doesn't turn the ball & just relies on accuracy has such a excellent FC record.

He sort of reminds me of Nikita Miller from the windies.

I don't know why the selectors haven't picked him in tests, but if they look at him bowl and feel he doesn't do enough to potentially trouble test batsmen - I don't fault them for having that view.

But i do feel he would be very useful in T20 internationals, seen him enough in the Big Bash to be convinced of that. And on second thought, I guess I don't mind if he taken to UAE later this year as the 2nd spinner in the test squad, guys like Ahmed, Holland, Murihead aren't exactly better than him.