England National football team thread

[MasterBlaster76]

Ha ye i saw it. Gotta get Burton up and running soon, replicating what Germany did post their 2000 EURO disaster should not be that hard to do.

The Premier League has so much power, the FA needs to start demanding stuff in the interest of the national team.

I really can't continue to accept England have a quality league, but a national team that is always technically inferior to the top European and world teams technically in major tournaments.

So, do you have an idea of the steps the Germans took to come so far in twelve years?

 

[puddleduck]

They encouraged their young players to pass the ball and play incisive football. Then they played them when they got old enough. It will take time of course, but I'm so bored of hearing the same thing over and over. When France won the World Cup in '98 with a fresh young team we heard all about how we would be introducing academies to replicate their success. Well it's now 14 years later and the likes of Wilshere, Ox, Rodwell, Cleverley, Wellbeck etc are the fruits of those ideas. Over the next decade we will see whether those changes have actually had an effect. It's absurb that people think the same players that made up most of the team in the early 00's will offer anything different to what they offered then.

 

[MasterBlaster76]

They encouraged their young players to pass the ball and play incisive football. Then they played them when they got old enough. It will take time of course, but I'm so bored of hearing the same thing over and over. When France won the World Cup in '98 with a fresh young team we heard all about how we would be introducing academies to replicate their success. Well it's now 14 years later and the likes of Wilshere, Ox, Rodwell, Cleverley, Wellbeck etc are the fruits of those ideas. Over the next decade we will see whether those changes have actually had an effect. It's absurb that people think the same players that made up most of the team in the early 00's will offer anything different to what they offered then.

As I said in the other thread, sometimes it feels like England has been in one great big transition period since around 1970. At least the next generation looks to be in good hands, it's not as if we're short of promising new young players. Hopefully Powell's move to Utd will see him join those ranks.

I think the idea of playing them when they're old enough is key - before they've lost that fearless attitude that all good young players have. Rooney had it in 2004 - but it's gone now - for England at least.

 

[War]

A next thing with Germany is that before their current team that has emerged since the 2010 World Cup. The teams they played since EURO 2000, in WC 2002 & 06, EURO 04 and 08 were not that great at all.

Only Ballack, Oliver Khan, Lehmann and Lahm, between 2000-2008 were really great world players of those 8 years.

Germany though made of for that lack of great creative talent, by having a strong work ethic and players absolutely enjoying playing for Germany.

That joy in a lot of ways is epitomized in the career of Miroslav Klose and Podolski. Both couldn't crack it for Bayern Munich and many major EURO clubs never bought them (until now for Podolksi), but in a German shirt, they always look like world beaters.

England as everyone knows, players generally always struggled to replicate club form for England and always seemed weighed down by the history.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

the problem england will have implementing that kind of system is the teams in england won't take the hit of playing young players without guarantees of success. man city and chelsea are extreme examples but they're not going to give a spot in their starting eleven to 18 year old youth product joe bloggs when they could go out and buy a young player that's been the talk of europe for the last year because he has been playing regular first team football.

I think that resonates through the whole league though, as soon as you're in the premier league, there is so much money available and on the line depending on your position it's more cost effective and risk free to just go out and buy proven talent. as well as the germans looking at how their young players developed it went hand in hand with a lot stricter financial controls than the rest of europe.


even the advantages of the new money are fading in time, playing alongside great players made lampard and terry real world class, however, they probably earned that chance because they had already built a reputation at chelsea, not sure had abramovic just took over he would have looked to sign players of their quality in the hope they'd develop with better players around them.


unrelated to all that I'd have to admit, except for the selection of john terry and joe hart acting like a goon sticking his tongue out the english fans and commentators were nowhere near as bad as normal and despite the fact, as a bitter scot, I'm glad they're out, I didn't really feel the same level of irritation towards them as I usually do. don't really think there was the typical bravado and delusion and the commentators were pretty fair and honest.

 

[MasterBlaster76]

the problem england will have implementing that kind of system is the teams in england won't take the hit of playing young players without guarantees of success. man city and chelsea are extreme examples but they're not going to give a spot in their starting eleven to 18 year old youth product joe bloggs when they could go out and buy a young player that's been the talk of europe for the last year because he has been playing regular first team football.

Yes - that is a huge problem to overcome and something that is not going to go away - until the FA or Fifa introduce a foreigner limit rule! That will force clubs to field a certain number of English players at all times and will encourage more money from these big foreign owners, who couldn't care less about the England team, to be spent on academies and the like.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

well, lots of countries manage without limits. really, I think the financial fair play rules would go a big way to helping, i gave examples of chelsea and man city but the same thing happens at fulham or aston villa. I don't know why, but despite being the richest league in the world it's not markedly better than the rest of the world leagues, so they can afford to cherry pick other leagues best players and those leagues simply find someone else from within to take their place. in a funny way, the english league will be almost helping generate talent in other countries (sort of the same way europe en masse keeps south america churning out talent)

dortmund sell kagawa to man u, replace him with the slightly cheaper german player reus, monchangladbach will churn someone else out.

in england the top players don't move on, they're already earning their maximum, when they want new players they can afford to look anywhere (and seem to prefer to) young promising english players invariably go to big clubs to play in their reserves and are replaced at smaller clubs with foreign players because selling someone to man u can bring in money to enough to buy several guys from a french team of similar standard (i.e. carroll gives newcastle 35m, newcastle go out and raid the french and german leagues)

in england good players will still get through and not every young player that germany churns out will be a world beater but the point is they have a much higher turn over maiximising their opportuinies for success.

 

[puddleduck]

Yeah Stinky makes some excellent points regarding the German league. There's a massive issue with short-termism in English football. Teams like Bayern will potentially sacrifice entire seasons of trophies to introduce young talented players and give them the experience they need. In England, Chelsea tried something similar and it last half a season. If Man U slip from the top 2 people start questioning Ferguson for christ sake! Take having to bring back Scholes instead of potentially playing a Pobgba or Morrison.

 

[Epic]

Just reading your guys' posts makes me feel smarter.

 

[MasterBlaster76]

Rooney suffers when the red mist descends and has a propensity to lose his cool in key games. Sometimes an impetuous customer, prone to easy frustration.

He didn't lose his cool this time round.

The problem with Rooney this time was he wasn't match ready - through his own fault. He simply didn't have the chance to ease himself into the tournament.

There's always a problem with Rooney and tournaments - even Euro 2004 when he took the Euros by storm, even with that one he got injured - while terrorising Portugal who didn't know what to do with him. We all know what would've happened had he stayed on the pitch - we definitely would've beaten Portugal and then who knows?

2006 as far as I remember, he had a metatarsal injury shortly before the tournament, so once again wasn't really match fit - I distinctly remember an air-kick vs Portugal, which a fit Rooney would've smashed into the back of the net - and then of course, he got sent off vs Portugal.

2008, well we didn't get there - courtesy of a nasty bobble, Scott Carson and a Wally with a Brolly.

2010 - Rooney was on fire for Man Utd - then he had that injury right at the end of the season, and Sir Alex bought him back way too early for me. At the tournament, once again he clearly wasn't match fit - but no England player really turned up for that one.

And now 2012 - deservedly sent off because of a stupid petulant little kick, which led to him being short of football right up to the Italy game.

I'm not making excuses for him - the things I've mentioned are cast iron facts - I just wish we'll one day see another tournament where he's bang in form, completely match fit, and not suspended for the kick off! Seems Rooney, like England and penalties, is cursed when it comes to International tournaments. England are definitely cursed when it comes to penalties. This time round though, it wasn't a case of a great performance, where we often outplayed our superior opponents, such as both the Portugal games in 2004 and 2006 - this time it was luck and lousy Italian finishing, together with some never-say-die defending that meant we made it to penalties. Italy completely outplayed us, apart from a super spell in the first half, where we looked like the real deal. It could've easily been 4 or 5-0.

The problem is, the moment you come out and tell the world you've been watching tons of videos it kind of makes it redundant as an exercise because you're back to the taker not necessarily going with his usual side. Like Buffon saying he went and watched naughty videos. Clearly he's studied the England takers, and subsequently went the right way for nearly all of them.

Maybe that's what we're doing wrong.

I think Pirlo has a valid case for the player of the tournament even if Germany beat Italy. He has bossed the midfield with such ease its like playing Fifa on amateur mode.

Speaking of which, one of the things that disappointed me the most was the amount of times he popped the ball over the top of a static, flat back four, for Balotelli to chase - that was just like Fifa on a lower difficulty! I don't understand it - we had four men, against one - Balotelli - why didn't we have one man stay deep as a sort of sweeper? At least that way, Balotelli doesn't get a clear run at the goal.

The worst thing that was ever said, and it's a motto that seeps through the very fabric of the English game.

"Football's not a matter of life and death... it's much more important than that."

Football is not life and death, it is a sport, a game if you will. The fans and media have tried very hard to make that statement a reality, when the truth is it builds more pressure. It takes the joy out of the game. Yes there can be passion and a desire to win. Commitment etc... But the ultimate goal should be to enjoy the game and provide enjoyment to others. To elevate a simple sport with such ridiculous hyperbole is a vague snapshot of many things that have been wrong with English football.

That is very true - seems the burden to win is what always weighs heavily on English shoulders - and the longer we go without a win, the heavier that burden will become.

Step forwards Cleverly, Welbeck, Wilshere, Rodwell, Smalling, Jones, Oxlade Chamberlain - it's your turn to shoulder it next. At least we've got a WC Group that we should walk through - regardless of what happens at the tournament itself, failure to qualify completely is a very damaging thing.

----------

Yeah Stinky makes some excellent points regarding the German league. There's a massive issue with short-termism in English football. Teams like Bayern will potentially sacrifice entire seasons of trophies to introduce young talented players and give them the experience they need. In England, Chelsea tried something similar and it last half a season. If Man U slip from the top 2 people start questioning Ferguson for christ sake! Take having to bring back Scholes instead of potentially playing a Pobgba or Morrison.

Well, Pogba wouldn't have helped the England team, would he? I see your point though.

 

[War]

BBC News - John Terry racism trial legal team mull 'bad character' bid

This court case is going to get so ugly now.

----------

Yeah Stinky makes some excellent points regarding the German league. There's a massive issue with short-termism in English football. Teams like Bayern will potentially sacrifice entire seasons of trophies to introduce young talented players and give them the experience they need. In England, Chelsea tried something similar and it last half a season. If Man U slip from the top 2 people start questioning Ferguson for christ sake! Take having to bring back Scholes instead of potentially playing a Pobgba or Morrison.

Yea indeed i look at how Man City is treating Adam Johnson and how Chelsea staff say they rate Josh McEachran, but aren't giving him much a chance.

But their has to be a balance i guess. We have a good league brand, so i guess we don't need to totally copy Germany and sacrifice the entire league to develop the national team.

I think we just need to make Burton the true hub of developing English football talent, coaches like La Masia (Spain/Barca), Clairfontaine (France), Coverciano (Italy), Zeist (Holland) - so that it would be easier for coaches to pick young English players into their clubs. Or even like France and Holland, Europe could start rating English talent and start raiding the league for players, since as we know that best french and dutch players don't play in Ligue 1 and Everdivisie - those leagues are fairly average these days.

Since lets be frank most young English players technically fall short of the right standard, which is why we have a case of where 60-70% of the league is foreign players.

I was so impressed when i saw Athletic Bilbao in the champions league this year. A full team, full of talented young Spanish players. It would be great if middle-table club, like a Newcastle, Aston Villa, Everton could have something similar one day.

 

[War]

BBC Sport - Euro 2012: England must learn from familiar failings after exit

 

[MasterBlaster76]

Some snippets from this article, about how to get over the loss.

BBC News - Euro 2012 England loss: Five ways to cope with a disappointing defeat

"It's the same process as if you had lost somebody you have loved."

Lindenfield advocates a four-stage process.

"Find a safe outlet. It can be swearing or talking about it or slamming something down on the table. The next stage is comfort - getting a hug from someone or someone making you a cup of tea."

Then the disappointed person can move on to getting things in perspective before finally seeking out compensation - something that will make them feel better. A new hobby or interest might be helpful.

Really? If that was the case, I would've picked up piano, guitar, saxophone and pretty much every instrument under the sun if I took to a new interest/hobby every time England get knocked out.

Even among the most ardent of armchair fans there can sometimes be a confession that the hype around England, the sheer strength of feeling, can slightly mar the appreciation of the tournament itself.

"A tournament is much more enjoyable once the raw emotions of partisanship are taken away," suggests White.

Now England fans can praise the attacking play of Germany and the calmness on the ball of Spain in an entirely dispassionate manner.

Moreover, they can watch the semi-finals without gnawing fingernails or hoping that the worst team wins so England have an easier ride in the final.

Rubbish. Supporting England is what these things are about to me. Hopefully Italy can beat the Germans now.

England are used to penalty shootout exits from major tournaments, often accompanied by a sense of injustice that the "better team" had lost.

But their defeat by Italy has widely been viewed as entirely justified in the light of the poverty of England's play.

"Normally there is a sense of injustice but Roy Hodgson has been so grown-up about it. We can't say 'we wuz robbed'," says White.

True. And the worrying thing is this time and last time, we were completely found out by a superior team. Far from being the better team, we could easily have received a 5-0 stuffing - on another day, maybe we would've done. We can't say 'we wuz robbed' this time - twice on the spin in fact.

Instead, England fans can get annoyed by a coaching structure and culture of football that has apparently left the national team without players who competently pass the ball.

"The usual recourse is that we can complain about our system," says White. "There are something like 10 times as many age-specific coaches in Spain and Germany."

I had no idea about that!

The likes of Mats Hummels, Mesut Ozil, Thomas Mueller, Andre Schurrle, Marco Reus, Toni Kroos and Mario Gotze - all under the age of 24 - are the fruits of the process.

And to be fair, we have Welbeck, Cleverly, Wilshere, Smalling, Jones, Rodwell, Oxlade Chamberlain and Hart - there's almost an entire England team there. Not to mention one of the best fullbacks around - Micah Richard - who for some reason was left at home; he's only 24.

There's hope for the future I think, but I also reckon we've got to be brave and take a few chances with these 'kids'. Not in the way we took a chance with Walcott at the World Cup when he didn't play, but in the qualifiers. Of course, it has to be structured around older heads like Rooney and Gerrard.

You've got to wonder though: had the above been born German or Spanish, where would they be in ten years time or so? Probably lifting a World Cup.

 

[War]

Rafael Benitez: England have the talent ? but not the philosophy - News & Comment - Football - The Independent - Interesting viewpoints on English football by Rafael Benetiz here


Also some excellent post EURO/look to future analysis articles here:

Roy Hodgson predicts England team changes after their exit from Euro 2012 - Mirror Online

Euro 2012: England cannot harbour realistic ambitions in current guise | Daniel Taylor | Football | The Guardian

Euro 2012: Familiar failings cost England | Live football and soccer features | ESPNFC.com

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/9354727/Euro-2012-if-England-think-radically-and-act-now-we-can-do-a-Germany-says-Jamie-Carragher.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/9354807/Euro-2012-success-of-the-Premier-League-will-always-wring-England-players-dry-and-leave-them-exhausted.html

 

[Bevab]

And to be fair, we have Welbeck, Cleverly, Wilshere, Smalling, Jones, Rodwell, Oxlade Chamberlain and Hart - there's almost an entire England team there. Not to mention one of the best fullbacks around - Micah Richard - who for some reason was left at home; he's only 24.

There's hope for the future I think, but I also reckon we've got to be brave and take a few chances with these 'kids'. Not in the way we took a chance with Walcott at the World Cup when he didn't play, but in the qualifiers. Of course, it has to be structured around older heads like Rooney and Gerrard.

You've got to wonder though: had the above been born German or Spanish, where would they be in ten years time or so? Probably lifting a World Cup.

Comparing Welbeck to the likes of Schurrle, Ozil is in no way good.