India in England Jun-Sept 2014

[PokerAce]

So you are saying that Dhoni should be retained because he wins at home, even though his team plays this bad overseas? Why do we even play overseas then? Lets play all our games at home. Does that sound right to you? Overseas performance has always been the barometer and should continue to be if India have to progress as a performing nation in cricket.

Even after we lose this series, there will only be a select few who will be replaced (just to show that chopping/changing has happened). The actual chopping/changing should happen at the top with the captain is what I am saying.

Are u actually saying, that had some else been the captain this innings, India would not be 100/6 on flat wicket to an England side who are one bowler short?

Indian batsmen struggle overseas, and changing the captain won't improve their technique. Dhoni is not the first bloke to captain a test side overseas, and no matter who has captained, they have all struggled. So I am not buying the notion that changing the captain will suddenly improve the technique overseas. You are dissing on Dhoni, for not doing what historically no one has ever done anyway as an Indian captain. Its not like India had captains winning overseas left right and centre and its suddenly stopped under Dhoni. You would probably have a point then, but that is not the case.

You are actually believing that if Dhoni goes, suddenly India will be blowing SA, AUS away in their own backyards. That is not going to happen no matter who the captain is. So instead of dissing on Dhoni, for not doing what no one has done anyway, why not appreciate him for doing things no one had done before him. Like being #1 test side, when did that happen before Dhoni. Sure it came on the back of home wins, but so what? India white washing Aus 4-0 when the hell had that ever happend. It was at home, yeah so what? The 8-0 was also in Eng's and Aus' home. SO why should India whitewashing Aus 4-0 at home have any less weight.

You can say he has not done what no one before him did with any great consistency anyway ... or you can say he has done lots of things that no one before him did.

 

[lion100lion]

So, Can we avoid an innings defeat here ?

 

[SaiSrini]

Captains are part of team selections and have their say in who plays. And also considering Dhoni's equation with the current board, it would be funny if someone says Dhoni doesn't have a say in selection matters. And for those who say that its the team that wins or loses you the game (fair enough), when it loses, the captain naturally gets the blame because he is part of the side selection. And he has been part of a gut wrenching 8-0 loss in England and Australia. And now that we are back on those shores, the result doesn't look very different even now.

I am trying to address the root cause of our problem. I have no personal agenda against Dhoni (again re-iterate, I am a big fan of him in ODI's).

 

[richowebbo]

This is why Cricket is amazing!

India gifting the match to England, with England bowling well. It doesn't seem right that a team other than England is capitulating!

It's funny that the captain always take the brunt of the abuse when a team is losing. Dohni has actually batted not too badly in this series, and India have bowled well. In the last few tests, Indians batting has been the biggest issue, and once a batter is out there, there isn't much the skipper can do. I think Dohni has set really good fields and has got it bowlers bowling good plans. Kohli looks a shadow of the player we have seen over the past couple of years. Jimmy is right in his head. Jimmy has bowled him 30 balls, for 7 runs and been dismissed by him 4 times. Ouch.

 

[ParkedTheBus]

The Indian fans are used to losing overseas, it is the manner of defeat that is most disturbing. Losing without a fight, collapsing like a pack of cards, that is what angers the Indian fans.

 

[Epic]

Dhoni is a lost cause now though, the 2 overseas 0-8 losses have beyond done damage to both him and his legacy, if either Kohli or Pujara were in form I'd be tempted to hand them the captaincy with immediate effect, but it's pointless, our spell of overseas tours is about to come to an end, do whatever needs to be done after the tour of Australia, give the new Test captain a couple years of home tests to build a side around whatever their style is.

 

[richowebbo]

And as I say that, the captains gone!

 

[ParkedTheBus]

It is pretty ironic that the best captain India has cannot even break into the first XI.

 

[SaiSrini]

Are u actually saying, that had some else been the captain this innings, India would not be 100/6 on flat wicket to an England side who are one bowler short?

Indian batsmen struggle overseas, and changing the captain won't improve their technique. Dhoni is not the first bloke to captain a test side overseas, and no matter who has captained, they have all struggled. So I am not buying the notion that changing the captain will suddenly improve the technique overseas. You are dissing on Dhoni, for not doing what historically no one has ever done anyway as an Indian captain. Its not like India had captains winning overseas left right and centre and its suddenly stopped under Dhoni. You would probably have a point then, but that is not the case.

You are actually believing that if Dhoni goes, suddenly India will be blowing SA, AUS away in their own backyards. That is not going to happen no matter who the captain is. So instead of dissing on Dhoni, for not doing what no one has done anyway, why not appreciate him for doing things no one had done before him. Like being #1 test side, when did that happen before Dhoni. Sure it came on the back of home wins, but so what? India white washing Aus 4-0 when the hell had that ever happend. It was at home, yeah so what? The 8-0 was also in Eng's and Aus' home. SO why should India whitewashing Aus 4-0 at home have any less weight.

I am not even remotely saying that. But I want them to try someone else and see if the results can change. No one can say how results would turn out to be (unless fixing happens). But my theory is that Dhoni and his defensive (at many times, laidback) mindset coupled with his wierd selections continue to hurt India a lot. I also believe Dhoni has become a lot more stubborn these days and has closed himself to even the constructive criticism that comes his way.[DOUBLEPOST=1407602208][/DOUBLEPOST]

It is pretty ironic that the best captain India has cannot even break into the first XI.

Who's that? Hope you are not referring to Sehwag.

 

[asprin]

Pathetic! Absolutely pathetic performance. Why the hell can't we show any fight? You can lose, but lose with dignity. I take back what I said. India at the moment are worst than BD. Congratulations!

 

[ParkedTheBus]

Who's that? Hope you are not referring to Sehwag.

Haha, no. I was talking about Rohit there, really impressed with his captaincy both in Ranji and IPL. I'd give Gauti a chance as well, but he is in the same category as Rohit, "good cricketing brain, not good enough to get into the team".

 

[PokerAce]

But the records do not cover everything. The Indian squad was in disarray when Ganguly took over and his side was a developing one in every sense of the word. On the other hand, with all due respect to MSD, he had Sehwag, Gambhir, Zaheer, Harbhajan and many others playing at the peak of their powers, of whom many were introduced by Ganguly. And while MSD's record might be better, Ganguly was the one who gave the squad belief that they could compete overseas, he was the one who brought the competitive streak.

I am sorry but Ganguly had the Best India had to offer. Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman and he himself at their peak and still on the right side of age for Cricket. Sehwag was at his destructive best, and Ganguly had Kumble and Harbhajan at his best to call up on. Kumble was a giant at home. Kumble on those Indian pitches, was 100% guarantee of a win. Dhoni has never played at home (or away) with Kumble in his side and still delivered.

If you compare what the two captains had, Ganguly had a far far better side to captain.

 

[grkrama]

this is how DRS should be, umpires asking

 

[richowebbo]

this is how DRS should be, umpires asking

Not sure Ballance or Pujara would agree with you!

 

[aditya123]

The Indian fans are used to losing overseas, it is the manner of defeat that is most disturbing. Losing without a fight, collapsing like a pack of cards, that is what angers the Indian fans.

No, we are not. For a good 10 years in the 2000s, we were used to our side fighting it out overseas and doing well. This side has it in them to do well. They just are`nt converting opportunities here. Also, this is a series where we led 1-0 and England were the ones who were to answer a lot of questions. Jadeja has to go out here, even if it means bringing in Dhawan and playing Gambhir in the middle order. Could even go back to Ishant/Shami in place of Jadeja.

From being 1-0 up to being so hopelessly bad is what hurts the most.