India in England Jun-Sept 2014

[Umair7]

Anderson is ill ,
Broad is injured ,
but Moeen is there

 

[PokerAce]

Poker, I`ve been there since the 90s as well. Remember Bridgetown very well also. Is been more than 20 years of following this sport but never felt so helpless about this side. This is a serious underperformance by our side losing to a side who are`nt at their best either.

Well give it time, Ist tour for Pujara, Kohli, Rahane. We have a good bowling unit starting after a long while. Some positives for sure. Soon who knows, the trend may change. Since the Bridgetown debacle we have won in WI twice I think.

 

[richowebbo]

Nah 'Fella', BCCI has many reservations about DRS and not all of them have to do with tehcnology ... so if the points are addressed its not a moot point. Also I read in an article somewhere this example, so its apt and I post it.

Suppose you are playing at the Eden Gardens, its a world cup semi final (has DRS in multi nation tournaments) ... 100K ppl screaming at the top of their voices, and there is an edge. Ppl screaming so the Umpire cannot hear the edge, but feels there was an edge, however since he didn't hear the edge he cannot give it out. What does he do then? Can he consult tech - No? So he is having to make a decision based on incomplete info, and that is effectively guessing. You may not want to admit it cos it flies in the face of your DRS that you lvoe so much, but making a decision without having all hte info required to make the decision, and which you can have at the flick of a button, is guessing in my book.

Also if you ask the umpires they will say that in an overwhelming majority of their decisions that are over-ruled after challenges, they would have arrived at the correct decision in the first instance of asking, had they been allowed to consult tech. I mean its just plain fking logic. There is an lbw decision to be made, did the ball hit in line, get on the walkie and find out. Instead of, did the ball hit in line, I don't know, so I will just go by the incomplete data I have, and give a decision and then have it challenged and then find out.

Also who the fk is scared of an argument? You have a point to make bring it !!

Why inverted fella? Also, as I said it, should have "fella". But that's by the by. I apologise if trying to address you in a friendly manner offends you, on an internet forum about cricket.. Also, no need to swear is there? Or can you not converse without having to revert to obscenity?

Isn't the official line from the BCCI that the technology is not 100% accurate/reliable? If it really is from not wanting captains to have it, then maybe the BCCI is scared of an argument.

And also, just reverse the exact point you made. If a player knows he hasn't nicked it but the umpire gives it out, as he has 100,000 fans screaming, then why shouldn't that player be allowed to review it?

The simple point I was making, and I will "bring it", is that it is a moot point, because the BCCI don't allow DRS. Once they decide to go along with every other test nation, we can discuss again how it should be used.

 

[Epic]

Well give it time, Ist tour for Pujara, Kohli, Rahane. We have a good bowling unit starting after a long while. Some positives for sure. Soon who knows, the trend may change. Since the Bridgetown debacle we have won in WI twice I think.

I don't know if it's the optimist in me or what but I do believe things will change, how long it takes and who or what ushers in this new great era is what's unknown. Prior to this series I thought the rebuilding process was going somewhat well, yes we lost 0-1 away to South Africa and New Zealand, but in each of those series' we should've won one of the games and could've drawn the other, hence why I was running my mouth about how I would put those that said we'd be annihilated to the sword after this series concluded, especially after this English side lost at home to Sri Lanka, who I do believe we're better than, which reminds me, for all the matches played between India and Sri Lanka in recent times, really not many Tests... anyway, this is quite a setback, I know we can still draw this, but even if we do I think the lack of fight and application shown in the last 2 Tests puts us back to square 1.

Still, personally the 1-2 loss at home to England was worse, but there was revenge at stake then and we hadn't lost a Test series at home in 8 years.

 

[PokerAce]

Why inverted fella? Also, as I said it, should have "fella". But that's by the by. I apologise if trying to address you in a friendly manner offends you, on an internet forum about cricket.. Also, no need to swear is there? Or can you not converse without having to revert to obscenity?

Isn't the official line from the BCCI that the technology is not 100% accurate/reliable? If it really is from not wanting captains to have it, then maybe the BCCI is scared of an argument.

And also, just reverse the exact point you made. If a player knows he hasn't nicked it but the umpire gives it out, as he has 100,000 fans screaming, then why shouldn't that player be allowed to review it?

The simple point I was making, and I will "bring it", is that it is a moot point, because the BCCI don't allow DRS. Once they decide to go along with every other test nation, we can discuss again how it should be used.

I inverted fella as that is the exact word u used in your last post.

Look if it was friendly banter then I apologise as I clearly over-reacted, no problem accepting that. The reason why did react i that manner, was because it didn't seem like firendly banter. If it was, then no issues, chapter closed.

With regard to what BCCI has said, yes BCCI says tech is not 100% reliable, and with regard to Hot Spot they have been proven right haven't they. How many ppl believed them in 2011 when they first said it. So perhaps simply dismissing those concerns is not such a great idea.

The point is to find a middle path and not agree with everythgin BCCI is saying. So let captains have it, but increase the 2 challenges quota.

Also the point about the Batsman challenging if 100,000 ppl are screaming is a moot point. The point is if the Umpire has doubts, then before he rules he will consult tech. So once he has used the tech to arrive at the decision the need of a challenge is gone. If the Umpire is using RTS (real time snicko) or whatever DRS has at the time, and then arriving at the decision, then its a fool proof decision. If say the umpire is making use of Hot Spot + RTS and then arriving at a decision that there was an edge, no matter how unhappy the Batsman is, the question of a challenge is gone. Will the Batsman then use the same Hot Spot + RTS video, that showed an edge which the umpire relied on, to try and prove he didn't edge it?

So the point is make use of the tech to arrive at the correct decision in the first go. That is the ideal scenario, surely you will agree? So denying Umpire the voluntary use of tech, which may help him arrive at a more informed decision, at the first go itself, flies in the face of it.

Lastly, just because BCCI doesn't use DRS doesn't mean we can still not look at ways of improving it. The whole point of DRS is to make more correct decisions, and if an umpire uses tech before arriving at a decision then surely more correct decisions will be made in the first instance of asking. Having it something like the present run out situations. The umpires go upstairs even on the blatantly clear ones, if the fielder requests. So if the Batsman says u gave it out, but there was no edge, just go upstairs if they already haven't consulted tech. If he has then just tell the Batsman, look you may have your doubts, but I have already consulted sniko, and you are out

 

[richowebbo]

I inverted fella as that is the exact word u used in your last post.

Look if it was friendly banter then I apologise as I clearly over-reacted, no problem accepting that. The reason why did react i that manner, was because it didn't seem like firendly banter. If it was, then no issues, chapter closed.

With regard to what BCCI has said, yes BCCI says tech is not 100% reliable, and with regard to Hot Spot they have been proven right haven't they. How many ppl believed them in 2011 when they first said it. So perhaps simply dismissing those concerns is not such a great idea.

The point is to find a middle path and not agree with everythgin BCCI is saying. So let captains have it, but increase the 2 challenges quota.

Also the point about the Batsman challenging if 100,000 ppl are screaming is a moot point. The point is if the Umpire has doubts, then before he rules he will consult tech. So once he has used the tech to arrive at the decision the need of a challenge is gone. If the Umpire is using RTS (real time snicko) or whatever DRS has at the time, and then arriving at the decision, then its a fool proof decision. If say the umpire is making use of Hot Spot + RTS and then arriving at a decision that there was an edge, no matter how unhappy the Batsman is, the question of a challenge is gone. Will the Batsman then use the same Hot Spot + RTS video, that showed an edge which the umpire relied on, to try and prove he didn't edge it?

So the point is make use of the tech to arrive at the correct decision in the first go. That is the ideal scenario, surely you will agree? So denying Umpire the voluntary use of tech, which may help him arrive at a more informed decision, at the first go itself, flies in the face of it.

Lastly, just because BCCI doesn't use DRS doesn't mean we can still not look at ways of improving it. The whole point of DRS is to make more correct decisions, and if an umpire uses tech before arriving at a decision then surely more correct decisions will be made in the first instance of asking. Having it something like the present run out situations. The umpires go upstairs even on the blatantly clear ones, if the fielder requests. So if the Batsman says u gave it out, but there was no edge, just go upstairs if they already haven't consulted tech. If he has then just tell the Batsman, look you may have your doubts, but I have already consulted sniko, and you are out

I didn't get mad at you at any point. Yeah, but why invert it in a post? You can't say you didn't do that for a reason! And it was clearly friendly batter! Calm yourself down, its just a forum!

So moving on, I totally agree with you about the 2 challenges. I think everything should be up for challenge.

You brought the point up about the 100,00 fans screaming, not me. I was just flipping the coin, so to speak.

I also agree with your last point. It should always be about improving the game. I think DRS does do this, and has proven to reverse incorrect decisions. So it would be good if the BCCI could move forward and present ideas that would make it acceptable.

I don't buy into the "human error makes the game what it is" argument. Its like in football (soccer), some people don't want TV replays for offsides, as it makes it more exciting with that human error element. BUt the abuse that the officials get from fans and managers is awful, and TV replays would ensure a correct decision. We have the technology to almost do away with the umpires/referees, and I think that can only be a good thing.

 

[Satan666]

To put things in perspective this is not the strongest Indian side on offer. Harbhajan, Zaheer, Sehwag and Gambhir were discarded too early and now Team India is paying the price for it.
Yes Gambhir has been drafted into the final eleven after a long time hopefully the selectors are making some sensible decisions. Pujara looks below average, Rahane also, Kohli seems the best of the bunch he is just taking a long time to acclimatize to test cricket. The bowling leaves alot to be desired, Ishant has done well since his recall, still critical of Bhuv Kumar. With regards to Ashwin it is proven that he can only play in home conditions!

If its any consolation to Indian fans this result should have been expected, they cant get worse than this only better. As long as MSD is in charge there is hope, dont give up just yet!.

 

[grkrama]

rahane is probably the best overseas batsman we have got.

 

[PokerAce]

I didn't get mad at you at any point. Yeah, but why invert it in a post? You can't say you didn't do that for a reason! And it was clearly friendly batter! Calm yourself down, its just a forum!

So moving on, I totally agree with you about the 2 challenges. I think everything should be up for challenge.

You brought the point up about the 100,00 fans screaming, not me. I was just flipping the coin, so to speak.

I also agree with your last point. It should always be about improving the game. I think DRS does do this, and has proven to reverse incorrect decisions. So it would be good if the BCCI could move forward and present ideas that would make it acceptable.

I don't buy into the "human error makes the game what it is" argument. Its like in football (soccer), some people don't want TV replays for offsides, as it makes it more exciting with that human error element. BUt the abuse that the officials get from fans and managers is awful, and TV replays would ensure a correct decision. We have the technology to almost do away with the umpires/referees, and I think that can only be a good thing.

I feel like I am picking hairs here, but the invert was cos I was quoting you ad verbatim and hence the use of ""s. If a person says to a reporter I saw a funny object in the sky, then when the reporter uses the info in an article he will put it as "funny object". Also the banter didn't seem friendly but lets put that behind, Chapter Closed

The Problem is DRS gets a lot of ones right, but the ones it bungles up are in many ways worse than the ones its supposed to correct. There have been numerous ones, Usman Khwaja, Trott LBW, Dravid catch on the 2011 tour at short leg, to name a few. So the question is does DRS work as well as it should. There is a two step test (I read in an article) for whether something workds. 1) A system should never not work, 2) even in rare cases when it doesn't work it shouldn't do any damage. DRS fails on both counts. DRS doesn't always work, especially Hot Spot which is a key component of DRS, its owner has said so himself, and Strauss I believe has gone on record to say players don't trust the Hot Spot now. (During the Ashes). So clearly Hot Spot doesn't always work, and it doesn't work regulalrly enough to have the players not trust it. 2) When it fails it obviously does damage. So as a system it fails on both counts on that test.

So just cos DRS gets a lot of decisions right doesn't mean we should ignore the failures and hail it as a magical system, cos both the ups AND downs matter. So if BCCI is not convinced yet they have a fair argument.

Also when you say DRS corrects a lot of wrong decisions, you are entering into tricky territory. What is a 'wrong' decision. Something that according to DRS was wrong? Well then your interpretation of right and wrong decisions is based on what the DRS is saying, but the accuracy of the tech DRS is using is itself in question !! So when DRS says a decision was 'wrong' how do we know DRS tech is accurate in coming to that conclusion. The problem here is the accuracy of the tech is being judged on the data generated by the very system whose accuracy is in question !!

Also I never made any "human error makes the game what it is" argument. So what are you saying. I am if anything saying, remove the Human error and by letting Umpires use tech to do away with Human error and arrive at the right decisions in the very first instance of asking.

Also do go through this article World in Sport | Fixing DRS. Since you are so clearly in the pro DRS brigade, and I am open to views from all sides, I would like to read your views on the points in this.

 

[Satan666]

rahane is probably the best overseas batsman we have got.

After only nine tests you're so sure he is the best overseas player?

 

[grkrama]

ya all the new crop are only a few tests old overseas and he is the one who has shown the most promise in such conditions.

he has got a hundred in NZ and ENG an almost century 96 in SA in such a short span, not to mention the half centuries.

also the fighting condition he has got them mostly batting with the tail.

 

[PokerAce]

I don't know if it's the optimist in me or what but I do believe things will change, how long it takes and who or what ushers in this new great era is what's unknown. Prior to this series I thought the rebuilding process was going somewhat well, yes we lost 0-1 away to South Africa and New Zealand, but in each of those series' we should've won one of the games and could've drawn the other, hence why I was running my mouth about how I would put those that said we'd be annihilated to the sword after this series concluded, especially after this English side lost at home to Sri Lanka, who I do believe we're better than, which reminds me, for all the matches played between India and Sri Lanka in recent times, really not many Tests... anyway, this is quite a setback, I know we can still draw this, but even if we do I think the lack of fight and application shown in the last 2 Tests puts us back to square 1.

Still, personally the 1-2 loss at home to England was worse, but there was revenge at stake then and we hadn't lost a Test series at home in 8 years.

If you look back haven't things improved already from the last tour. India registered an away win finally, a change of guard has happened, and its not a 5-0 which given the run India was on looked a given.

I agree the 2-1 defeat at home hurt more, but that is why I have so much respect for that English side. A mediocre side doesn't accidentally win in India. Thats just the second time in 14 years, and third in nearly 20 that India lost a series at home.[DOUBLEPOST=1407611415][/DOUBLEPOST]

rahane is probably the best overseas batsman we have got.

Dont get me wrong, Rahane is good, but after the SA and NZ tour didn't we all think Kohli has proved himself overseas already.

 

[PokerAce]

To put things in perspective this is not the strongest Indian side on offer. Harbhajan, Zaheer, Sehwag and Gambhir were discarded too early and now Team India is paying the price for it.
Yes Gambhir has been drafted into the final eleven after a long time hopefully the selectors are making some sensible decisions. Pujara looks below average, Rahane also, Kohli seems the best of the bunch he is just taking a long time to acclimatize to test cricket. The bowling leaves alot to be desired, Ishant has done well since his recall, still critical of Bhuv Kumar. With regards to Ashwin it is proven that he can only play in home conditions!

If its any consolation to Indian fans this result should have been expected, they cant get worse than this only better. As long as MSD is in charge there is hope, dont give up just yet!.

Personally I think that Sehwag was the only one removed too soon. The rest have had too long a rope. Harbhajan forget not taking wickets overseas, was not even taking wickets in India. Injury did Zaheer in, and Gambhir's selection I have always questioned. He was dropped rightly, but I have no idea why he was recalled. Forget scoring in Ranji he didn't even score in the IPL

 

[grkrama]

the batting collapse we had now has no logic, its independent of skill and talent on both sides.
Its not like a angry steyn ripped us aprt or a murali bamboozled every one.Its just like we went in there fearing the worst and watched it unfold aided heavily by the self fear.

apart from vijay and kohli al other wickets were giveaways.

I hope it rains heavily tomorrow to rub it in.

 

[War]

England

The Pietersen shadow will always looms & it was beginning to look worrysome after the lord's defeat that a combination of that, the crap the ECB executives were doing might cost them this series. However a combination of some slightly improved cricket & poor IND display has eased things down for now.

Team nowhere near the finished article. A fit Finn & Stokes would be better than Woakes/Jordan, Compton a better opener than Robson. And of course KP should be in.

India

IND since 2011 whitewashes are in danger of wasting all the improvement they made overseas between 2002-2010 that was started under S Ganguly. Last 3 overseas tours, they regressing back the 80s/90s version of themselves.

They haven't helped themselves this series with the strange selection of bits & pieces players like Binny & Jadeja though.

Question for IND fans, are middle order batsmen Tiwary & Rayudu still around. Why not bring one of them in & send Rahane to open?

On Kohli, sure he has had a poor 1st series in ENG, but having done well in AUS/SA/NZ vs their good pace attacks, he can be excused. He has many more tours to ENG in his career to correct that record.