India in England Jun-Sept 2014

[grkrama]

Dont get me wrong, Rahane is good, but after the SA and NZ tour didn't we all think Kohli has proved himself overseas already.

kohli is going through a poor form after a golden run, i will bet that ENG bowlers are going to pay heavily for this one day in "The Revenge of kohli"

Rahane may also go through a poor run but out of it he will perform well, its about how at ease you look in handling these conditions and bowlers that matter and i can say he looks the best, he has always performed well even the first time he debuted here in 2011 he showed promise and is fulfilling it well.

 

[War]

Personally I think that Sehwag was the only one removed too soon. The rest have had too long a rope. Harbhajan forget not taking wickets overseas, was not even taking wickets in India. Injury did Zaheer in, and Gambhir's selection I have always questioned. He was dropped rightly, but I have no idea why he was recalled. Forget scoring in Ranji he didn't even score in the IPL

Nah, from what i recall Sehwag got a long rope too & was rightfully dropped like all those players. Between the 2010 & 2013 home series vs AUS he was terrible, failing particularly bad on overseas tours to ENG/SA/AUS.

 

[grkrama]

England
The Pietersen shadow will always looms & it was beginning to look worrysome after the lord's defeat that a combination of that, the crap the ECB executives were doing might cost them this series. However a combination of some slightly improved cricket & poor IND display has eased things down for now.
Team nowhere near the finished article. A fit Finn & Stokes would be better than Woakes/Jordan, Compton a better opener than Robson. And of course KP should be in.

Im a huge KP fan myself but i believe that narrow window were it seemed possible that KP may get a look in has closed firmly shut after these two tests as eng wont play tests again till next year and have to peform badly enough to go back to KP by then he will be 35.[HASHTAG]#blamejadeja[/HASHTAG]

or if he scores a crazy amount of runs for surrey something bradmanish, to make a claim for the spot, which also i dont see happening.

[DOUBLEPOST=1407612441][/DOUBLEPOST]

Question for IND fans, are middle order batsmen Tiwary & Rayudu still around. Why not bring one of them in & send Rahane to open?

rayudu im not sure tiwary can get a look in, though he is always in and out with injuries.

 

[grkrama]

also i wouldnt mess rahanae's slot as he is doing really well with tailenders, i might actually have look at nohit sharma as for whatever his faults he may actually be good in seeing of that new ball.

 

[richowebbo]

I feel like I am picking hairs here, but the invert was cos I was quoting you ad verbatim and hence the use of ""s. If a person says to a reporter I saw a funny object in the sky, then when the reporter uses the info in an article he will put it as "funny object". Also the banter didn't seem friendly but lets put that behind, Chapter Closed

The Problem is DRS gets a lot of ones right, but the ones it bungles up are in many ways worse than the ones its supposed to correct. There have been numerous ones, Usman Khwaja, Trott LBW, Dravid catch on the 2011 tour at short leg, to name a few. So the question is does DRS work as well as it should. There is a two step test (I read in an article) for whether something workds. 1) A system should never not work, 2) even in rare cases when it doesn't work it shouldn't do any damage. DRS fails on both counts. DRS doesn't always work, especially Hot Spot which is a key component of DRS, its owner has said so himself, and Strauss I believe has gone on record to say players don't trust the Hot Spot now. (During the Ashes). So clearly Hot Spot doesn't always work, and it doesn't work regulalrly enough to have the players not trust it. 2) When it fails it obviously does damage. So as a system it fails on both counts on that test.
So just cos DRS gets a lot of decisions right doesn't mean we should ignore the failures and hail it as a magical system, cos both the ups AND downs matter. So if BCCI is not convinced yet they have a fair argument.

Also when you say DRS corrects a lot of wrong decisions, you are entering into tricky territory. What is a 'wrong' decision. Something that according to DRS was wrong? Well then your interpretation of right and wrong decisions is based on what the DRS is saying, but the accuracy of the tech DRS is using is itself in question !! So when DRS says a decision was 'wrong' how do we know DRS tech is accurate in coming to that conclusion. The problem here is the accuracy of the tech is being judged on the data generated by the very system whose accuracy is in question !!

Also I never made any "human error makes the game what it is" argument. So what are you saying. I am if anything saying, remove the Human error and by letting Umpires use tech to do away with Human error and arrive at the right decisions in the very first instance of asking.

Also do go through this article World in Sport | Fixing DRS. Since you are so clearly in the pro DRS brigade, and I am open to views from all sides, I would like to read your views on the points in this.

Come come now, I only said it seemed like you were up for an argument, which obviously you were based on your following post! I have no issue with you quoting what I said, but you picked out the FELLA bit for reasons that we both know, were meant to be antagonising. I call everyone fella, from mates to my dog. It must be a Yorkshire thing. Chapter closed.

It does make mistakes yes. But your examples are from different matches/series. Ballance has been given out incorrectly by umpires 3 times this series, and Pujara today. Thats just 4 examples from one series, there have been more tis series, where the umpire has messed it up. To be fair to the umpire, I think Ballance only knew 2 were wrong.

And your getting shirty again! Why are you putting me into a brigade? I just think that DRS is more accurate than the split second decisions of Humans. I'm not saying you mention "human error", I was just saying that some people have this view and I am not one of them. I'm not trying to prove you wrong or anything. This isn't a personal attack on your opinion.

I read the article,and it is exactly the same problems that are brought up time and time again. I think the biggest factor against DRS is that a computer can't judge the pitch like an umpire can. The article mentions this. The problem I have is that some umpires make bad decision after bad decision, yet without the review system, this can't be challenged. I'm not an enormous fan of Hotspot, for example, but it is a useful tool in 90% (maybe more) cases.

 

[PokerAce]

England

The Pietersen shadow will always looms & it was beginning to look worrysome after the lord's defeat that a combination of that, the crap the ECB executives were doing might cost them this series. However a combination of some slightly improved cricket & poor IND display has eased things down for now.

Team nowhere near the finished article. A fit Finn & Stokes would be better than Woakes/Jordan, Compton a better opener than Robson. And of course KP should be in.

I think England need to stop the KP nonsense. The guy can play. Robson goes, and Root opens, KP then slots in easily at 4 Bell at 5. Moenn Ali needs to sort his batting. If India are getting him with short pitched stuff, he will have a short lived Int'l career. Of course there is his bowling, but as a batsman he needs to sort himself out. Anderson and Broad are good, but then the drop in the third seamer is rather large, an area worth looking at.

India

IND since 2011 whitewashes are in danger of wasting all the improvement they made overseas between 2002-2010 that was started under S Ganguly. Last 3 overseas tours, they regressing back the 80s/90s version of themselves.

They haven't helped themselves this series with the strange selection of bits & pieces players like Binny & Jadeja though.

Question for IND fans, are middle order batsmen Tiwary & Rayudu still around. Why not bring one of them in & send Rahane to open?

On Kohli, sure he has had a poor 1st series in ENG, but having done well in AUS/SA/NZ vs their good pace attacks, he can be excused. He has many more tours to ENG in his career to correct that record.

I think India's bowling as surprised India. Before the tour no one believed India has the bowling to take 20 wickets, but Bhuvi, Ishant and Varun have stepped up. Pankaj's performance was well, in bits and pieces good. There is Umesh Yadav, who many feel should have been here, and who had a stellar 'A' side tour in Australia. Its a good group to work with. So that is a plus. No one thought that India could come back with so many positives on the bowling front. When the tour started, apart from Ishant, all the 5 pacers put together had played 17 tests among them.

The only reason Jadeja plays ahead of Ashwin is that he is the better batsman, and so even if the pitches dont help spin he can atleast contribute with the bat. Ashwin though in this test as put that claim into question. Lets not forget that Jadeja was match turning in Lord's with the Bat, but even so Ashwin has put the overall logic of Jadeja's selection into question.

Tiwary and Raydu are not good enough, I think we could say that with some confidence, but, there are some more batsmen for sure. Having said this though, honestly I think India's best batting unit is on this tour just that they are having a torrid run. Pujara, Kohli and Rahane, have performed in tough conditions in SA and NZ against good atts on seaming wickets. This tour ahs been tough for them, but they will benefit from this in the long run. Kohli seems terribly out of form, but he has to go through this. No other way to learn, same for Pujara. Those two are the future and I feel we could Rahane to that list now. Its a tough run, fair enough, but they need to be backed.

 

[grkrama]

Next test i might even try sending kohli in before pujara telling him to attack, just some shuffling and changes for changes sake may work a bit.

 

[PokerAce]

ting me into a brigade? I just think that DRS i

Come come now, I only said it seemed like you were up for an argument, which obviously you were based on your following post! I have no issue with you quoting what I said, but you picked out the FELLA bit for reasons that we both know, were meant to be antagonising. I call everyone fella, from mates to my dog. It must be a Yorkshire thing. Chapter closed.

It does make mistakes yes. But your examples are from different matches/series. Ballance has been given out incorrectly by umpires 3 times this series, and Pujara today. Thats just 4 examples from one series, there have been more tis series, where the umpire has messed it up. To be fair to the umpire, I think Ballance only knew 2 were wrong.

And your getting shirty again! Why are you putting me into a brigade? I just think that DRS is more accurate than the split second decisions of Humans. I'm not saying you mention "human error", I was just saying that some people have this view and I am not one of them. I'm not trying to prove you wrong or anything. This isn't a personal attack on your opinion.

I read the article,and it is exactly the same problems that are brought up time and time again. I think the biggest factor against DRS is that a computer can't judge the pitch like an umpire can. The article mentions this. The problem I have is that some umpires make bad decision after bad decision, yet without the review system, this can't be challenged. I'm not an enormous fan of Hotspot, for example, but it is a useful tool in 90% (maybe more) cases.

Yeah okay like I said, I believe you when u say you were getting personal, and like I said, if that is the case then I over-reacted clearly. So lets put that behind us. Chapter closed. Now that u have explained no offence taken on the use of any words. So yeah chapter closed there.

Also I have been houndd by the Pro DRS ppl, as I have reservations on the way DRS goes about reviews, so in my head I call them a Brigade, not that I intend it to be demeaning in anyway. Just that for me, there are ppl who are rather passionate on the issue of DRS, and want to convince me that its right. I suppose I too could be accused of pushing the no DRS thing too hard, but as long as its a good debate, I am always willing if not eager to listen. All in good taste.

Also anti DRS and anti Review are not the same thing. I am pro decision reviews and use of Tech, but the way DRS goes about it, is not I feel the proper way. The reservations I have listed many times. Also I am not attacking anyone's views, just that DRS doesn't convince me on many things. Umpire's call is another which potentially leads to all kinds of weird decisions, but because umpires are not allowed to explain their decisions we never know them.

Anyway I gues, this got heated up for no reason. But no harm done, all in good taste then [DOUBLEPOST=1407613510][/DOUBLEPOST]

Next test i might even try sending kohli in before pujara telling him to attack, just some shuffling and changes for changes sake make work a bit.

Send Rahane at 3, Pujara 4 Kohli 5

 

[grkrama]

that too, sometimes just a shufle of the order will be the thing to get batsman clicking into form.Though doubt MSD will ever do that, can you remember the last time he shuffled the batting order in tests.

 

[richowebbo]

Yeah okay like I said, I believe you when u say you were getting personal, and like I said, if that is the case then I over-reacted clearly. So lets put that behind us. Chapter closed. Now that u have explained no offence taken on the use of any words. So yeah chapter closed there.

Also I have been houndd by the Pro DRS ppl, as I have reservations on the way DRS goes about reviews, so in my head I call them a Brigade, not that I intend it to be demeaning in anyway. Just that for me, there are ppl who are rather passionate on the issue of DRS, and want to convince me that its right. I suppose I too could be accused of pushing the no DRS thing too hard, but as long as its a good debate, I am always willing if not eager to listen. All in good taste.

Also anti DRS and anti Review are not the same thing. I am pro decision reviews and use of Tech, but the way DRS goes about it, is not I feel the proper way. The reservations I have listed many times. Also I am not attacking anyone's views, just that DRS doesn't convince me on many things. Umpire's call is another which potentially leads to all kinds of weird decisions, but because umpires are not allowed to explain their decisions we never know them.

Anyway I gues, this got heated up for no reason. But no harm done, all in good taste then [DOUBLEPOST=1407613510][/DOUBLEPOST]

Send Rahane at 3, Pujara 4 Kohli 5

Unlike some people, I am only here because I really love talking about cricket and there are lot of clued up people on here and its great to have somewhere to chat that isn't full of trolls (like a certain tax paid for website/channel in the UK!). You obviously know your stuff so its good we can chat, just don't take anything I say personally. If I was actually unhappy with you, I'd have PM you mate.

I agree with you that the way reviews happen need looking at. Its far from perfect. But also too many obvious mistakes are being made by the Umpires, and Cricket is a confidence game. one wicket breeds others etc. so overturning wrong decisions seems like common sense to me. I don't think we'll ever get perfection, I just think DRS is better than relying solely on Umpires.

Rahane definitely needs to be higher up the order. He's class. I haven't seen the guy who was opening with Vijay much, but he didn't look too good. But Gambihr hasn't looked much better so far! Fair play that all the Indian fans here are still supporting Kohli. If he was English, he'd have been sent back to village cricket by now!

 

[PokerAce]

that too, sometimes just a shufle of the order will be the thing to get batsman clicking into form.Though doubt MSD will ever do that, can you remember the last time he shuffled the batting order in tests.

Its quite not the point, but if u strictly put it, then at the start of the series, he pushed himself up to 6 :P, but yeah I do get the larger point u r making.

 

[SaiSrini]

Batting: Pujara, Kohli and Rahane are definitely India's future. Especially Rahane, who has looked the best of the lot in this series. His Lord's century on a Day 1 pitch was very special, and he has had a few 50+ knocks too in this tour. Pujara has had the starts, but hasn't found the switch to take it to the next level. His has not been a bad performance, but by his standards, a mediocre performance. Kohli has been the biggest failure of this tour by any standards, but I am not even going anywhere near saying "he is not India's future". He needs to correct his game and most importantly his head. Vijay has also been a very surprising success for India this series (he has tapered off in the last two tests, but nothing takes away from his performance in Trent Bridge and Lord's). The core of India's batting for the near future is going to be these four (Vijay, Pujara, Kohli and Rahane). The remaining ones from the current squad right now (Dhawan, Gambhir, Rohit, Dhoni) are just not at all upto the mark and cannot be counted upon at all. Most likely Dhoni will be replaced at some point by either Samson or Naman Ojha. Rohit has some possible replacement options in Manoj Tiwary, Ambati Rayudu. Its Dhawan and Gambhir where finding their replacement is going to be tricky. Few options could be Jiwanjot Singh, KL Rahul. If you want to find good test openers, you need to examine their technique and not just their scores. Can they withstand the challenge in tough conditions? Can they bat it out on a bowler's pitch.

Batting Pool: Vijay, KL Rahul, S Dhawan/Jiwanjot Singh, Pujara, Kohli, Rahane, Manoj Tiwary, A Rayudu, N Ojha, S Samson

Bowling: Its definitely clear that Ravindra Jadeja has to go. He is not a test bowler by any means. I will keep confidence in Ashwin. Its the kind of confidence you keep in Kohli. Ashwin is an intelligent guy who gives the feeling that he can come good at one point. And his batting is just too good to be keeping him out of the test team, especially overseas. Ashwin can play as a pure specialist batsman right now. The Binny experiment has to be scrapped. With Ashwin being a more than decent bat, picking an extra spinner or an extra fast bowler would be the best bet. We do have some specialist spinners like Pragyan Ojha and Amit Mishra for test cricket. Bhuvaneshwar Kumar has been the find of the tour and has proved a useful bat too. Shami has been mediocre, but again similar to Kohli, he needs backing and more importantly rotation. Ishant Sharma (as much as his detractors might be wary) needs to stay. Varun Aaron needs to stay and needs to be backed and rotated properly. Pankaj Singh is just not international material. Umesh Yadav needs to come back in the test side.

Bowling Pool: R Ashwin, Pragyan Ojha, Amit Mishra, Bhuvi Kumar, Ishant Sharma, Varun Aaron, Umesh Yadav, Md Shami

India
Question for IND fans, are middle order batsmen Tiwary & Rayudu still around. Why not bring one of them in & send Rahane to open?

Yes, both are still very much around. For some reason, Indian selectors dont have as much confidence in these two that they currently have in the likes of Rohit Sharma.

 

[War]

Tiwary and Raydu are not good enough, I think we could say that with some confidence, but, there are some more batsmen for sure. Having said this though, honestly I think India's best batting unit is on this tour just that they are having a torrid run. Pujara, Kohli and Rahane, have performed in tough conditions in SA and NZ against good atts on seaming wickets. This tour ahs been tough for them, but they will benefit from this in the long run. Kohli seems terribly out of form, but he has to go through this. No other way to learn, same for Pujara. Those two are the future and I feel we could Rahane to that list now. Its a tough run, fair enough, but they need to be backed.

Ok cool, I just suggested them cause i noticed both hundreds & a couple 50s vs a very strong AUS (A) attack recently. Although you could argue the conditions are a bit different in ENG currently.

 

[PokerAce]

Unlike some people, I am only here because I really love talking about cricket and there are lot of clued up people on here and its great to have somewhere to chat that isn't full of trolls (like a certain tax paid for website/channel in the UK!). You obviously know your stuff so its good we can chat, just don't take anything I say personally. If I was actually unhappy with you, I'd have PM you mate.

I agree with you that the way reviews happen need looking at. Its far from perfect. But also too many obvious mistakes are being made by the Umpires, and Cricket is a confidence game. one wicket breeds others etc. so overturning wrong decisions seems like common sense to me. I don't think we'll ever get perfection, I just think DRS is better than relying solely on Umpires.

Rahane definitely needs to be higher up the order. He's class. I haven't seen the guy who was opening with Vijay much, but he didn't look too good. But Gambihr hasn't looked much better so far! Fair play that all the Indian fans here are still supporting Kohli. If he was English, he'd have been sent back to village cricket by now!

Yeah I am also here to discuss cricket with fellow cricket lovers, and yeah interacting with u is fun. Sure the last one got a bit heated, but thats all cleared up so no issues. Which Website are u referring to that is full of trolls, I didn't get that reference. I agree the blatantly obvious ones need to go. But do we really need the DRS for that. I mean ppl are missing the point when BCCI says no DRS. Its the overall package they are opposed to not the general idea of correcting decisions. So even without DRS, for the blatantly obvious ones, like Ballance, the 3rd Ump just use your walkie and problem solved. Same for Pujara. Not being in favor of DRS is not the same as I am in love with wrong decisions. There has been a total lack of communication about where BCCI stands on DRS. Just use the walkie more for the blatantly obvious ones, like Prior in the first test. NO DRS and still no Howlers. That would be a good common ground to start off with.

Dhawan was like a breath of fresh air, when he started. 187 against Aus, followed by back to back 100s vs WI and SA. Then he kinda went downhill, no one knows what happened. He had a 100 in NZ recently, but that was a rare high. Right now I would still back him as along side he is the best we have. Vijay had a torrid run in SA and NZ and weirdly he is the one performing now.

Rahane has looked good, but then when India were in SA and NZ we were delighted about Pujara and Kohli too. SA and NZ were Kohli's first test against overseas, esp. SA, and in the first test there against a fiery Steny Morkel attack he got a 100 in the first innings and a 96 in the second. After his stellar performances in the ODIs, where he has done all kind and manner of miracles. For instance to get to the VB series final in Aus, India had to chase down 320 in under 40 overs to get to the final, against SL. Kohli got India there in under 37 overs !! 11th Match: India v Sri Lanka at Hobart, Feb 28, 2012 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo Another totally mental chase was against Pakistan in the Asia Cup in 2012 5th Match: India v Pakistan at Dhaka, Mar 18, 2012 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo. Anyway after the miracles he had performed in ODIs, when he went to SA we were all keen on how he did, and after the 1st test (100 and 96) we all said yeah he is here to stay. Pujara we knew of since 2010 and he too did well there. Rahane kinda slipped under the radar, as everyone kept harping on Rohit as potentially the third, but he never really lived up to that.

There is no question of Kohli not getting support same for Pujara, India has invested in them heavily and they will come good. India just has a thing fo backing players. Tendulkar for instance was given a free rope. 10 straight 0s and his place would still not be questioned. It never got to that of course.

Also where are u on KP? Personally I think England are making a mess of the thing. Why does it have to be Cook or KP. Have Root open, he has been an opener all his life, Bell drops to 5, KP at 4. Great batting line up. Great players often have ego clashes, doesn't mean you have to pick one. That is where good management comes in.

There have been so many players who played in the same side, who could not get together. Waqar and Wasim were a lethal partnership, but they had a running spat throughout, especially after Wasim became captain and Waqar was dropped for form. In India Kapil and Gavaskar were never friends. Dhoni and Sehwag was another saga, remained in the dressing room. Dravid and Ganguly was always a secret fued, that got ugly under the clown Greg Chappel. Ganguly went so far as to say that Dravid had no guts or something to that effect. Clarke and Katich is another well known one where at one point Katich grabbed Clarke by the neck at one point in SA I think. Warne and Gilchrist is another similar story. Basically the entire Pakistan team at one point or the other have been out to get each other.

England to get their act on KP right. There is no case for Robson playing over KP.[DOUBLEPOST=1407618474][/DOUBLEPOST]

Ok cool, I just suggested them cause i noticed both hundreds & a couple 50s vs a very strong AUS (A) attack recently. Although you could argue the conditions are a bit different in ENG currently.

To be fair, Tiwary and Raydu (Tiwary more than Raydu) have been given a fair number of chances, they are not quite cut out for Int'l Cricket. Also they were not facing Anderson as u said

 

[richowebbo]

I don't really blame BCCI, but there seems to be a lack of movement in terms of them suggesting ways to get DRS to a level that they can accept it.

I agree that if there is a third umpire, which there always is, then if there is a glaring error, it should be overturned. There are enough replays for goodness sake!

I've not seen much of India on tour the last year, so can only comment on what I've seen this series with regards to Dahwan etc. I've seen a lot of Kohli and he's class, but Anderson is in his head. He's faced 30 balls off of Jimmy, made 7 runs and been dismissed by him 4 times. That's shocking!

I like Pujara and I like Rahane. Ashwin was great with the bat. Dohni, from what I've read today from Indian fans, may be in the last chance Saloon.

I think that whilst you won't face Jimmy and Broad in English conditions every tour, its a mark of who stands up to these challenges. Kohli has let himself down badly.

I loved KP. Great entertainer. ON his day, superb. But the whole world new he didn't get on with Cook, and Cook is the ECB's man through and through. It was always a question of when, not if, he was forced out. I hate to Eton crowd of cricket, but they will rule the ECB for many years to come. As Cook will stay for the foreseeable future, the only changes I would make at present would be Carberry in for Robson (I'd prefer Hales, but that won't happen). Carberry did well in an awful team performance in Aussie land and Finn for Jordan. I think Woakes has got something.