India in England Jun-Sept 2014

[Skater]

you got to do it first right

If we could make it to a 4th final and finally get over the line then yes, that would be nice, but it still wouldn't compare to winning the Ashes.

In 2010 we won the World Twenty20 and while it was pleasing at the time, at the end of that year we went and won in Australia and which do I think is the greater achievement? You guessed it.

 

[War]

I doubt that as well. They still take great pleasure in beating us. England v Australia is the oldest rivalry in sport, and we love beating each other. Personally, winning the Ashes no matter how many times we do it would always come above winning the 50 over World Cup.

Ye basically. No disrespect to the Indians, but its obvious sporting culture difference. Cricket India # 1 sport, ODI cricket particularly after winning 83 w-cup, was India favourite format for a long time cause they struggled for years to make an impact tests. IND don't make impact in any other major world sports.

Football our biggest sport, cricket is not played by majority of the country, ENG have made an impact in many sports. So its pretty straightforward why winning a cricket world cup won't make a similar impact here like when we won world cup 1966.

 

[abhi_jacko]

I agree that for England winning the world cup is probably "not as big a deal" as the Ashes. But I also feel the same is not true for Australia - mainly because Aus is a great sporting nation. They play hard and win a lot. Plus they seem more obsessed with performing and winning in general than in excelling in just one format of the game. When you have such an attitude, winning an international trophy would count for more than winning a bilateral series (that seems to be happening a little too frequently )

In the end its a very subjective issue though and can vary from person to person. So will hardly have a clear cut answer to this

 

[Skater]

I agree that for England winning the world cup is probably "not as big a deal" as the Ashes. But I also feel the same is not true for Australia - mainly because Aus is a great sporting nation. They play hard and win a lot. Plus they seem more obsessed with performing and winning in general than in excelling in just one format of the game. When you have such an attitude, winning an international trophy would count for more than winning a bilateral series (that seems to be happening a little too frequently )

In the end its a very subjective issue though and can vary from person to person. So will hardly have a clear cut answer to this

I honestly think that in order to understand this rivalry fully you have to be either English or Australian. To understand the deep feelings between the two. We don't necessarily hate each other - we just like beating each other.

Take the 2005 Ashes. Widely regarded as the best Test series of all time. Both teams played hard, and fought for everything. But there was (barring the occasional Ricky Ponting outburst) a huge amount of respect between the two sides. Freddie Flintoff consoling Brett Lee after we won by 2 runs at Edgbaston, Flintoff congratulating Matthew Hayden on his hundred at The Oval, and then later in that match Warne shaking hands with Pietersen after his 158 had won us the urn. That, for me, is what cricket is all about.[DOUBLEPOST=1408132184][/DOUBLEPOST]As for the Ashes happening too often, that has unfortunately been the case recently due to a number of factors. We were due to have the series in 2013, which we did, but then because Australia didn't want to have the Ashes and the World Cup they are hosting in the same season, they moved the Ashes forward a year. There was also a desire for England and Australia not to have to play such a gruelling series immediately before the World Cup in the future, so this sorted that out. Now the next series here should have been in 2017, but to avoid having a long wait between the 13/14 series and the 2017 series they are playing again in 2015.

 

[abhi_jacko]

Sure I get that. And obviously I will never fully understand the psyche behind the Ashes hype because I am not directly linked to it. But what you said - that is still the English perspective. And it doesn't surprise me because I expected this.

I would like to hear more from the Aussies on how they rank Ashes/World Cup etc. If they really would rather beat England than win the World Cup

 

[abhi_jacko]

Just been digging around ever since this topic came up: Found 3 interesting quotes from Flintoff, Vaughan and Strauss. Ofcourse it all needs to be taken with a pinch of salt because you always need a bit of perspective to really understand the statements

Winning in India bigger than Ashes, says Strauss (India were ranked number 1 in Test at this moment)
Flintoff says Ashes bigger than IPL or World Cup (he might be meaning T20 world cup since this is from 2009)
VAUGHAN: WORLD CUP WIN BIGGER THAN ASHES (around the 2007 world cup)

Couldn't really find any quotes from Australian players though

 

[PokerAce]

Australia won consecutive world cups while they were at the top also in test cricket. We return to the 70's early 80's the West Indies won successive cups also being at the top in test cricket. For these two great teams the world cup was just the icing on the cake for their world dominance which was primarily based on being the 'unofficial test cricket champions'. For teams like India who won the world cup in '83 started the mad craze for cricket, hence most Indian fans would automatically think that the World Cup is the pinnacle of the great game, its almost ingrained in their DNA now.

India always had a huge craze for Cricket, alongside Hockey. All the 83 world cup did was push hockey out. Cricket however didn't come in thx to 83. Also its quite weird how you are saying a world cup is not the biggest tournament there is in Cricket or indeed any sport. While the Ashes may be a big deal to you, and to the Aussies, to the rest of the world its just a test series. Sure we get all the history and the importance to Eng and Aus, but do you really think that the Ashes is the pinnacle of cricket. I mean to 8 of the 10 test playing nations its just a random series among gazillions. ALso 83 didnt put in us the love for ODI cricket, Indians love all Cricket Period. Sure we never got to celebrate a lot of test wins, but the ones we did win are still stuff of the legends. 71 series WI, 86 series Eng. So don't say that Ind only loves ODI cricket.

Also while I get that Eng Aus is a huge thing, but trust me, it cannot come close to Ind Pak encounters, and to that there is no argument. For the ashes sure the 'cricket' loving pop of England get excited, but Indo Pak matches its every single one of the two countries regardless of whether he has any love for Cricket. All Indians want to beat Pakistan and vice versa. The most in the Ashes some abuses are hurled and thats it, Indo Pak matches have the potential to start fking riots. And I am not talking about small ones, fking mental riots, and there have been during Ind Pak matches. Cricket is such HUGE thing here, especially Indo Pak matches, that it can bring the two nations togehter and absolutely pull them apart. I have been hearing a lot about the Ashes but it cannot do 1% of any of this.

So even, with this rivalvary, the tension, the pressure, the stakes, which all the Ashes put together cannot match one tense Indo - Pak encounter ... I can tell you tht neither to India nor to Pakistan, winning an Indo-Pak test series, betters winning a World Cup !



I mean I am not kidding, the Ashes rivalry to us is Cute.

 

[Skater]

India always had a huge craze for Cricket, alongside Hockey. All the 83 world cup did was push hockey out. Cricket however didn't come in thx to 83. Also its quite weird how you are saying a world cup is not the biggest tournament there is in Cricket or indeed any sport. While the Ashes may be a big deal to you, and to the Aussies, to the rest of the world its just a test series. Sure we get all the history and the importance to Eng and Aus, but do you really think that the Ashes is the pinnacle of cricket. I mean to 8 of the 10 test playing nations its just a random series among gazillions.

Also while I get that Eng Aus is a huge thing, but trust me, it cannot come close to Ind Pak encounters, and to that there is no argument. For the ashes sure the 'cricket' loving pop of England get excited, but Indo Pak matches its every single one of the two countries regardless of whether he has any love for Cricket. All Indians want to beat Pakistan and vice versa. The most in the Ashes some abuses are hurled and thats it, Indo Pak matches have the potential to start fking riots. And I am not talking about small ones, fking mental riots, and there have been during Ind Pak matches. Cricket is such HUGE thing here, especially Indo Pak matches, that it can bring the two nations togehter and absolutely pull them apart. I have been hearing a lot about the Ashes but it cannot do 1% of any of this.

So even, with this rivalvary, the tension, the pressure, the stakes, which all the Ashes put together cannot match one tense Indo - Pak encounter ... I can tell you tht neither to India nor to Pakistan, winning an Indo-Pak test series, betters winning a World Cup !

I mean I am not kidding, the Ashes rivalry to us is Cute.

You have to wonder though, is that a good thing? That a cricket match can cause riots between two nations like this? I quite like the fact that our rivalry with the Aussies is big but for the most part our players can have a beer with their players after the match and so on. Except after Bodyline perhaps, when diplomatic relations between the two were actually strained.

 

[PokerAce]

You have to wonder though, is that a good thing? That a cricket match can cause riots between two nations like this? I quite like the fact that our rivalry with the Aussies is big but for the most part our players can have a beer with their players after the match and so on. Except after Bodyline perhaps, when diplomatic relations between the two were actually strained.

Thats how big cricket is, here. Its a religion here ... and you cannot understand that till you have been an Indian or a Pakistani and experienced Indo Pak rivalries. There are plenty of friends on both sides as players, but to the public, it stopped being about Cricket long ago. All the politics, the four wars Ind - Pak have fought, the whole social scars of partition are always in the background for these matches.

They may be more in the background, or less in the background, but they are always there. Stopping cricket ties with each other is often used to send a message, just as inviting the opposite cricket team is seen as a sign of extending the hand of friendship by the local govts. India did it in '99 and Pak in 00s. These tours don't go ahead without govt. permission most of the times. I remember after the 2008 terror attacks Indo Pakistan cricket hit another rock. Pakistan refused to play any of their 2011 WC matches in India as the crowd would be anti-Pak, and played in B'desh. For the Semi they had to come to India, as Ind were hosting, but thats another story.

Still remember the '99 WC match vs Pakistan, when Ind Pak were fighting the Kargil war ... fking remember sitting in front of TV yelling the hell out of everything, and when Ind won, the celebrations ! Ind Pak way transcends cricket and is rarely just a sport. Sure it is just a series from time to time. Ind Pak have their own version of the Cold War and when tensions are low its a series, but any spike in the tension and you don;t want to be an Indian or Pakistani player playing in front of 80000 fans of either team baying for each other's head quite literally. Thats why cricket is so big, and cricketers bigger than anywhere else.

I know you think you premier league footballers are big, Rooney is big but I am sure he could still roam the streets. You get SRT and Dravid spotted in the public, thats it, a mob will gather, and everything will shut down.

So even with this level of mental Indo Pak rivalry, a World Cup > a test series win vs Pakistan and vice versa for Pakistan fans.

 

[abhi_jacko]

I think the "stories" of riots and violence due to India-Pak matches are totally exaggerated and in some cases outright false. I have never witnessed any such "riots" ever since I started following cricket. The celebrations are louder when we win against India - fireworks etc. - but when we lose the backlash is maybe a bit harsher, but in no way more violent. The most violence I have seen is when the match was disrupted in 1996 world cup against SRL or when stones were pelted during the 2003 world cup when we lost to Aus in the group match. Neither incident related to Pak in any way.

Edit: And I am not saying the rivalry isn't fierce. It is mainly because of the wars we have fought and the deep rooted political issues between the two countries in general. But just that these tales of violence and riots are hardly ever true (Atleast on the Indian side. I cannot comment on how fans/public reacts in Pakistan)

 

[War]

I know you think you premier league footballers are big, Rooney is big but I am sure he could still roam the streets. You get SRT and Dravid spotted in the public, thats it, a mob will gather, and everything will shut down.

Nah, Wazza or no high profile ENG player can't walk the streets. He would get mobbed in a good or bad way just like IND cricket stars, depending on if he in his club fans territory or not. ENG cricket stars could walk the street peacefully. You seem to underating the football dynamics culture here ha.

The same india pakistan riots in cricket, check this how United/Liverpool, Arsenal/Spurs, Newcastle/Sunderlands behave towards each other..

 

[abhi_jacko]

The same india pakistan riots in cricket, check this how United/Liverpool, Arsenal/Spurs, Newcastle/Sunderlands behave towards each other..

True that. The violence seen in European football culture is cringe-worthy. I am glad cricket fans don't get down to those levels of insanity

 

[War]

Take the 2005 Ashes. Widely regarded as the best Test series of all time. Both teams played hard, and fought for everything. But there was (barring the occasional Ricky Ponting outburst) a huge amount of respect between the two sides. Freddie Flintoff consoling Brett Lee after we won by 2 runs at Edgbaston, Flintoff congratulating Matthew Hayden on his hundred at The Oval, and then later in that match Warne shaking hands with Pietersen after his 158 had won us the urn. That, for me, is what cricket is all about.

For our generation Ashes 05 the best, but some old time ENG fans might throw up 1981, 1972 1954 as equal.

 

[PokerAce]

Nah, Wazza or no high profile ENG player can't walk the streets. He would get mobbed in a good or bad way just like IND cricket stars, depending on if he in his club fans territory or not. ENG cricket stars could walk the street peacefully. You seem to underating the football dynamics culture here ha.

The same india pakistan riots in cricket, check this how United/Liverpool, Arsenal/Spurs, Newcastle/Sunderlands behave towards each other..

Oh I know about the Football rivalries, trust me have been following Arsenal since '00, but Indo-Pakistan cricket is another level still.

 

[War]

Oh I know about the Football rivalries, trust me have been following Arsenal since '00, but Indo-Pakistan cricket is another level still.

Cricket nor IND/PAK battles doesn't have a crowd disaster equivalent to the Hillsborough disaster - nor do fans in cricket on either side resort to the kind of racism/vile chanting in football in certain parts of europe - although I have heard from UK IND/PAK fans that sometimes fans get dirty with hindu/muslim chants.

For crowd control purposes United/Liverpool games are played at midday for example - never a night game. IND/PAK authorities i have never noticed them do that in cricket.

I was at a India/PAK 99 W-Cup game i now remember @ Old Trafford when i was 10. The only cricket crowd atmosphere that can rival football I've witness - but would give a United/Liverpool clash a slight edge over that, although not by much.