India in England Jun-Sept 2014

[abhi_jacko]

Why not make Pujara the test captain for this West Indies series and give Dhoni some much needed rest (and maybe a wake up call at the same time) ? He has proven himself more than anyone else at domestic level. Has also led West Zone, India A and India B, and has scored bucketful of runs as captain. There are no question marks over his temperament and commitment (the guy is willing to play county cricket and even take up spin bowling to get a chance to represent his country)

Ofcourse, this will never happen because subcontinent teams are obsessed with seniority (be it age or international experience). How can Dhoni and Kohli play under Pujara, when they are "seniors"?

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@PokerAce - yes they are excuses. You need a shitload of things to fall in place before our test captain will be changed - The captain contender Kohli needs to be in rich form, Dhoni needs to be out of form, Dhoni needs to lose matches at home, Kohli needs to get ODI captaincy experience and most importantly, Earth-Venus-Mars need to align perfectly to form a cosmic equilateral triangle

 

[PokerAce]

Why not make Pujara the test captain for this West Indies series and give Dhoni some much needed rest (and maybe a wake up call at the same time) ? He has proven himself more than anyone else at domestic level. Has also led West Zone, India A and India B, and has scored bucketful of runs as captain. There are no question marks over his temperament and commitment (the guy is willing to play county cricket and even take up spin bowling to get a chance to represent his country)

Ofcourse, this will never happen because subcontinent teams are obsessed with seniority (be it age or international experience). How can Dhoni and Kohli play under Pujara, when they are "seniors"?

See again you want to do it from the test level down. Let the guys first captain in T20s and ODIs and get a feel for captaincy.

Secondly Pujara has hardly much INt'l experience. Kohli has atleast played lots of ODIs and has experience to add to the tests he has played, but Pujara has just very limited test experience. Also like Kohli Pujara is having a poor run of form. If a new captain must be appointed for the WI tour then it be rather Kohli than Pujara because, while both Pujara and Kohli are struggling for form, at least Kohli overall has much more of Int'l Exp, and much wider captaincy experience, having led Ind to the U-19 WC, and done various other captaincy stints since then.

Thirdly, with the team on a low morale and in need of an emphatic win, which could come from the WI tour is not the time to change Captains. For all you know the new inexperienced captain fails to win even the WI series.

Its best to go with the tried and test, hammer WI like Ind did last year and focus on the World Cup. We know the a change of captain will not help India in Aus. We all know it, lets be honest. If Australia play like they can, then lets face it, no matter who the captain is, it is going to be a very very long tour. I remember the '99 tour, SRT, Dravid, Ganguly and Laxman were all on that tour, including Srinath and Kumble (probably Prasad, I am not sure), who put together, even at that point, had far too much experience of playing abraod than the present lot does, and still got thumped 3-0 comprehensively. So sometimes one has to accept that the other team is just too good.

Similarly India then went to SA, under a different Captain to SA and again got thumped 2-0 and only the rain kept it from being 3-0. On the NZ tour same story. Sometimes a team is just not ready, and you have to accept that, and its not about the captain. That same team was later able to win in NZ, and draw in Aus and SA. Right now this team is not ready is too low on confidence and too inexperienced to seriously challenge Aus in Aus.

Its about being patient, and simply changing the captain is not the solution. No captain looks good when a team is losing and all kinds of flaws in his captaincy can be pointed out, and naturally with two half baked sides (one with seniors on the way out, and the other with the youngsters on the way in), when MSD has lost away, ppl are pointing fingers at him. The real question though is being forgotten ... is this team ready to consistently win away? The answer is no.

 

[grkrama]

Its about being patient, and simply changing the captain is not the solution. No captain looks good when a team is losing and all kinds of flaws in his captaincy can be pointed out, and naturally with two half baked sides (one with seniors on the way out, and the other with the youngsters on the way in), when MSD has lost away, ppl are pointing fingers at him. The real question though is being forgotten ... is this team ready to consistently win away? The answer is no.

this, i mean people calling clarke a loner or something and he wasnt playing katich, he was causing rift in team etc , now he is hailed the best captain in the world.

[DOUBLEPOST=1409079173][/DOUBLEPOST]i too want the team to win and there is certainly potential there, but changing captaincy for the sake of it wont work period.

 

[PokerAce]

@PokerAce - yes they are excuses. You need a shitload of things to fall in place before our test captain will be changed - The captain contender Kohli needs to be in rich form, Dhoni needs to be out of form, Dhoni needs to lose matches at home, Kohli needs to get ODI captaincy experience and most importantly, Earth-Venus-Mars need to align perfectly to form a cosmic equilateral triangle

Again they are not excuses. You want to sack MSD and give Kohli the captaincy just for the heck of it. Kohli is in terrible form, you don't know where he is going from here, is he going to go up and or down, but hell will all that, lets give him the captaincy now, or MSD may start winning again and we will not be able to sack him. What kind of logic is that.

Also no one is saying Kohli should be averaging 100 when he gets the captaincy, just averaging higher than the tailenders and not being one of the biggest reasons for Ind's embarassament in the tour would be a good start. I find it odd that you want to sack the Captain because the team performance was poor, and reward the player who was the biggest let down of the tour and one of the key reasons for the disappointment.

And lastly change of captaincy is not a small thing, so when a change of captaincy is to be done, naturally all kind and manner or things have to be considered, or in your words - naturally a shitload of things have to fall into place. You don't change a captain on a whim.

 

[grkrama]

Ofcourse, this will never happen because subcontinent teams are obsessed with seniority (be it age or international experience).

sourav and msd? werent exactly seniors right. The point being made is lack of experience as opposed to seniority.

 

[PokerAce]

sourav and msd? werent exactly seniors right. The point being made is lack of experience as opposed to seniority.

Not only that Dravid, SRT Zaheer all played under MSD. My argument for not sacking MSD has nothing to do seniority what so ever.

 

[abhi_jacko]

Ganguly's career was nearing its end. Sachin was never interested in captaincy. So that's a bad example. I am not saying that examples of junior captains are not there, but there is this mentality that the senior player (either by age or by experience) gets dibs on captaincy. Which is why Kohli is the frontrunner for the job because he has the most international experience. Rubbish reason, because we have had examples of young, inexperienced players going on to become great captains. Pataudi and Greame Smith off the top of my head. Became captains at the ages of 21-22. So age and experience amount to nothing when the results show.

@PokerAce - I think this thought of yours says it all:

Its best to go with the tried and test, hammer WI like Ind did last year and focus on the World Cup. We know the a change of captain will not help India in Aus.

This is exactly how BCCI thinks, and exactly what is wrong with our team. As long as we are (presumptuously) hammering teams at home all is fine and dandy. Just curious - what would your suggestion be if we actually lose the series to West Indies? Basically, like always we have no vision and we will follow the usual trend. We are going to overwork and overburden MSD until his captaincy form deserts him in ODIs as well as in home matches. Then we will finally bring in a new guy and pray/hope for miracles again.

Meanwhile, most of us (including me) will obviously blindly support the team, and keep our fingers crossed for a win in Australia because that's how it is.

So bottomline - We wont get a new test captain until MSD steps down/retires. The new captain will obviously be low on captaincy experience because he will have no experience in Tests, and I don't see MSD stepping down from ODI captaincy before Tests. We will be back to the "rebuilding" phase before you know it. Yay

 

[PokerAce]

Ganguly's career was nearing its end. Sachin was never interested in captaincy. So that's a bad example. I am not saying that examples of junior captains are not there, but there is this mentality that the senior player (either by age or by experience) gets dibs on captaincy. Which is why Kohli is the frontrunner for the job because he has the most international experience. Rubbish reason, because we have had examples of young, inexperienced players going on to become great captains. Pataudi and Greame Smith off the top of my head. Became captains at the ages of 21-22. So age and experience amount to nothing when the results show.

@PokerAce - I think this thought of yours says it all:


This is exactly how BCCI thinks, and exactly what is wrong with our team. As long as we are (presumptuously) hammering teams at home all is fine and dandy. Just curious - what would your suggestion be if we actually lose the series to West Indies? Basically, like always we have no vision and we will follow the usual trend. We are going to overwork and overburden MSD until his captaincy form deserts him in ODIs as well as in home matches. Then we will finally bring in a new guy and pray/hope for miracles again.

Meanwhile, most of us (including me) will obviously blindly support the team, and keep our fingers crossed for a win in Australia because that's how it is.

So bottomline - We wont get a new test captain until MSD steps down/retires. The new captain will obviously be low on captaincy experience because he will have no experience in Tests, and I don't see MSD stepping down from ODI captaincy before Tests. We will be back to the "rebuilding" phase before you know it. Yay

Actually this is what says it all -

"As long as we are (presumptuously) hammering teams at home all is fine and dandy."

Where does this sarcasm go for other teams? What do you mean hammering teams at home all is fine and dandy? Ind got hammered by England and look at the high Eng are on. Now where do you think Eng were playing - AT HOME.

India will go to Australia and lose where do you think Australia would have been playing - At Home. What did Australia do against India Away - Lose 4-0.

India lost to SA and NZ earlier, where were SA and NZ playing - AT HOME.

I have a HUGE issue with Indian fans taking home wins for granted or treating it as irrelevant, as if home wins don't matter. In fact India fans weirdly treat home wins as something to look down upon. Oh beat WI at home, how cheap and useless !!

Yet when the other teams beat India at their Home, all hell is supposed to break lose, its somehow higher than or more important than India beating other teams at their home. Its as if ONLY away wins count. Look at England going mad and so full of themselves after a Home win. That is fine, but when Ind beat WI at Home, that is supposed to be cheap and inferior in some way is it?

The captain must go, he cannot beat other teams at their home !!

I also don't understand when this same rational then goes missing for other captains. Australia since 2007 have won just 1 test in Asia and lost 8 (all eight against India, 7 of them on the trot in Ind led by MSD). They have lost three straight series in India [2008 4 tests series 2-0, 2010 2 test series 2-0 (whitewash) and 2013 4 test series 4-0 (Whitewash)], and yet do they cry for Clarke to be sacked. Do their fans says oh if we are so bad in Asia, especially India, they should stop playing tests in India. MSD for all his sins has not lost 7 on the trot to anywhere, not Eng, not Aus, not SA not NZ, and yet has been given such a terrible reputation. Clarke on the other hand, is a captain genius !

I am sure at some point in Australia when Australia are on top, some wisearse will make a comparison between MSD and Clarke, and say oh look Clarke has been so proactive, MSD so poor and defensive. The thing is its easy to look good winning. Why don't you go back to Australia tour of India and Clarke losing 4-0, and then tell me how much of a genius did Clarke look to you then and how defensive did MSD look?

All teams struggle in alien conditions, and do well at home. Teams that don't follow this rule and win everywhere are definitely the exception and come along rarely. Australia lost the Ashes 3-0 away, but they still celebrated winning the Ashes at home. At that point did they say with sarcasm "As long as we are (presumptuously) hammering teams at home all is fine and dandy." !!

Or did they look down upon their Home win like you do, and say oh whats the damn point, its just a Home Win. Did the fans slate Clarke, after this series, and say oh so what if he won at home, Clarke is going to be fking useless in Asia Away, so lets all get together and boo and demean the Home Win, like you lot will do after India thrash WI. Where does this sarcasm go for other teams?

Foreign teams had this bias against India, and now I see this is seeping into India fans too. Johnson got a new reputation as that of a feared bowler based on performances at home, yet should an India player perform in Home conditions, he is labelled all kinds of things from a flat track bully to someone who can only perform on dust bowls. Yet when Johnson does it at his Home, he is the new enhanced reputation.

You say what happens if India cannot beat WI. So what its still a great home record. SA in 2010 couldn't beat India at home, what did they do crucify Greame Smith !! SL lost to SA at home just now, what did they do, sack Matthews? But were that to happen to India, and should India fail to win a home series MSD should be hanged right?

I find this attitude of Indian fans taking home wins as something to look down upon quite sickening actually. All teams struggle in alien conditions, but its fine when other teams lose away and win mostly at home, Australia being a great example there, but when India lose away, nothing short of stoning the captain to death will do. Under MSD we can be sure of beating WI, but we have taken this run for granted, and don't value it any longer. Fans think, put even a monkey in charge of the team, and we will be whitewashing Australia at home for eternity !

The day India get a captain, and given the witch hunt it may happen soon, that let alone winning away, cannot even win at home, that is when fans will realise that Home wins are also an equal part of the game. I find the attitude of Indian fans to Home wins quite appalling actually - A home win, how dare the Captain win at home ! Lets boo him for that.

You cannot see that even if we are losing away, we have at home a captain giving back to the other teams in equal measure. That is not good enough for you. Even Ganguly couldn't do that at winning just 47% of his home matches. Compare the team Ganguly had and what MSD has - never played with Kumble in his side in India, still 70% win at home. Do you think ANY captain can take this side and deliver those numbers at home. Yes Australia whitewashed us 4-0 so what, we whitewashed Australia twice under MSD. They did it at their Home, We did it at our Home. Equal exchanges.

What you really want is a captain who goes and loses to Australia, and we know no matter who the captain is Ind will lose in Aus, but we know that once Aus come here, we will return the favor under MSD. That faith I have, which I don't on anyone else right now. Also give MSD a run with this side, he will take India winning overseas too eventually. With anyone else, forget winning away, I doubt they can even win at home, atleast not based on how they bottled under pressure in Eng. Only MSD was the one who stood up and got counted in the face of just quality opposition bowling.

 

[abhi_jacko]

Holy hell .. I am sorry, I did not read the whole thing but got the gist of it.

First of all, you are being a little too dramatic. No one here is deriding MSD's success at home. But we get it .. he has an excellent record at home. Well done. We make as much of a big deal when we beat teams at home. So all this hoopla about "Indian fans not placing enough value on home wins" is false. Either way, can we move on and try achieving something more ? Or are we really just happy with this ? I am pretty sure Dhoni and his boys aren't.

About the "Dhoni witch hunt" - I think you are forgetting how much of a leeway the Dhoni-Fletcher combo has gotten. They have had tremendous support from both the board and the fans, despite producing some horrific results. Losing to England 2-1 at home tops that list for me and was worse than the 8-0 horror run. But Dhoni has been persisted with and he has made some amends. Once again, I have nothing against Dhoni the player, the captain or the wicketkeeper. But as long as he is captaining all three formats, we will never have a captain ready for use and will be back to the rebuilding phase. I dont mind that either .. because it is nothing new as an Indian cricket fan.

We could (and will) keep Dhoni as the captain and supposedly hammer West Indies into oblivion, or put faith in our future captain candidate and risk "not hammering" West Indies.

PS: That "quote" was not sarcasm. Its the truth. That is the mentality we all have, and is reflected in your defense

 

[grkrama]

MSD until his captaincy form deserts him in ODIs as well as in home matches.

Im sure that guy wont bring it to that.He will probably retire after WC and stick around in odis may be for a year, i mean he has got everything that can be achieved so fast, the only thing i would say that's keeping him going is he wants to make a proper team something he can build by himself before he walks off to the sunset.[DOUBLEPOST=1409110465][/DOUBLEPOST]

I think you are forgetting how much of a leeway the Dhoni-Fletcher combo has gotten.

still say, Fletcher is the wrong ingredient there.

 

[abhi_jacko]

Im sure that guy wont bring it to that.He will probably retire after WC and stick around in odis may be for a year, i mean he has got everything that can be achieved so fast, the only thing i would say that's keeping him going is he wants to make a proper team something he can build by himself before he walks off to the sunset.

I honestly hope it pans out as romantically as you have made it sound

 

[grkrama]

hehe, i mean if i were in his boots that would one of the few motivation points to stick around apart from representing your country.

Also tests are not an ideal place to check out captaincy. IF we are going to try out new captain it has to start from t20 level, also stick with one guy when we play minows, instead of switching among raina and kohli, i mean kohli should have played against BAN, one of the reasons i see his form slipped, was stopping playing when you are having a great run, his poor form is not limited to ENG series, even in IPL he wasn't upto mark, this is same thing i have seen with SRT too, whenever he came from a break he was rusty, and took time to warmup, though he used to warmup quicker than virat, at his age kohli should be playing as many games as possible when he is having a good run. I mean you can rest him a couple of games too but always have him in the squad and in that mode.

ok im going off topic. The best way to groom new captain is giving him a winning and talented and settled team or start with t20s

 

[lion100lion]

 

[abhi_jacko]

LOL .. Umesh left out for Mohit. Adorable

 

[tonka115]

Two out of form opening batsmen, this could be interesting.