Indian Test Cricket

[puddleduck]

The one a few posts above mine. Not entirely, but for the most part yep, a reasonable point. You don't seem to be making excuses, trying to blame everyone but the players. As you rightly point out, it is not excusable for a player's attitude to be poor in international cricket.

Would anyone say Sri Lanka had a more talented team than India a few months ago? Well, they certainly worked harder, and they have always got the best out of what they have. India, in contrast, seem too often to believe their own domestically produced hype. No one player should be bigger than the team at club level, and that goes even more so for international. If they can not motivate themselves as grown men at the highest level, they should not be playing.

 

[SLICKR392]

Pretty clear that I hate Indians Because I criticise the cricket team and their sporting abilities after you continuously show your bigotry towards us? Sure, I dislike some Indians, but obviously you're going to have plenty of idiots amongst 1.2 billion potentials. No point taking notice of you further since you admit a dislike of people based on nationality, can't argue with the statements made, so attack the country instead.

I clearly don't judge the people on the basis of their race. And by Aussies I don't mean the millions of Aussies that live in Australia. I hate the cricket team, though there are certain personalities I do admire and follow.

 

[Atharv]

Which part? The bit where they don't seem motivated (hell I watched every ball of those test series with some Indian fans who were pretty much heart-broken by the end). They just wanted to see some fight. They didn't want to see a team look like they wanted to go home because they weren't winning. Even when England got beaten 3-0 in Pakistan, they looked at all times like they were trying their hardest, they just got outclassed.

I don't think anybody in the Indian team thinks that he is bigger or greater than the team.Atleast I don't get that impression. Nobody in a national team , be it Zimbabwe or India turns up for a national game as if it is a Sunday game. Neither did Indian's . They were trying though it was not good enough.
If they did not appear good enough , it was because of the skipper . India had their moments through out the tour . But on all occasions "the cool dude" failed to drive home the advantage . The coach too was not useful .

It would be interesting to see Samit Patel's performance before he was dropped . What would have happened if Patel had been in brilliant bowling form taking bucketful of wickets but had same body weight?

 

[Atharv]

You are talking about Zaheer, the couch potato who moves around the field like one (even in test matches)? Its a pathetic state of affairs of India's bowling that we are relying on Zaheer's bowling (which I agree has been exceptional most of the time).

I would rather have a couch potato in the team who not only knows what his job is, but is also doing it brilliantly, rather than a captain who has no clue how to be a skipper in the tests and to top it,based on his performances does not even deserve a place in the test team.

But just because you perform, you can show whatever attitude you want to? Thats a crap argument....

I think you can. It might not be a desirable trait, but you have to put up with it if the person is performing. A person can also show attitude and arrogance if he has the backing of highest powers of a popular game like cricket in India,even though he might not be performing in well.

And to tell you, you will find it almost impossible to tell a leader who never had problems with someone within his own team or within his own setup. Ganguly had problems aplenty when he was captain. He had problems with Laxman, at times with Dravid too, etc. Ganguly had his own group of players in the team and they got preferential treatment. Does it mean he was not a good captain/leader?

Ganguly might have had problems with certain players . I don't know.But he certainly seems to have dealt with it and managed better than Dhoni.
Ganguly might have backed certain players , but he seems to have backed the correct players who performed well for a number of years . Guess Ganguly had better man-management and problem dispensing skills than Dhoni.

All this division you hear from the team is blown up primarily by the media. All Sehwag and Dhoni have is a difference in opinion and mis-communication. Can happen with any team. That doesnt mean they dont see eye to eye and that Gambhir has a problem with Dhoni when he frankly said the game should have been finished in the 48th over.

As I have said in another post,fine by me .

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Sure, I dislike some Indians, but obviously you're going to have plenty of idiots amongst 1.2 billion potentials.

hmmm . So if a few people from your country seem to be racist does it mean that all the aussies are potential racist ?

 

[puddleduck]

I don't think anybody in the Indian team thinks that he is bigger or greater than the team.Atleast I don't get that impression. Nobody in a national team , be it Zimbabwe or India turns up for a national game as if it is a Sunday game. Neither did Indian's . They were trying though it was not good enough.
If they did not appear good enough , it was because of the skipper . India had their moments through out the tour . But on all occasions "the cool dude" failed to drive home the advantage . The coach too was not useful .

It would be interesting to see Samit Patel's performance before he was dropped . What would have happened if Patel had been in brilliant bowling form taking bucketful of wickets but had same body weight?

He didn't initially get the chance with his first call ups. They brought him into the squad, said he needed to go work on his fitness and sent him home. It was only after intial improvement that he was given a chance.

Are you honestly telling me that Sehwag was trying in England? He didn't even field, let alone bother trying to bat (I know he only played a test). Raina at no point tried to show any kind of application, in the field they looked disinterested.

You put a lot of stock in the captain, yes he has a job to do, but even at basic club level, you expect the senior players to step up and be counted. To be offering advice, to show calm heads when batting. To not throw their wickets away. If all the players who got injured weren't fit, or were too tired, they should have given their places to someone else. This is not a sunday team full of a couple of 13 year olds and some adults. This was the recently crowned number 1 test team, world cup winners, and a team full of experience, apparently complimented with talented youth.

If that was India trying, I'd hate to see them when they really don't care

Personally I think you've missed the point of a team sport. This isn't golf, this isn't tennis. Even the best football teams will sell someone if they don't fit the team dynamic. Even supposedly selfish players like Kallis still fight for their team, they still contribute in every way they can. Have some of India's players really shown that kind of drive in the field when things look tough?

Regards to Ganguly, he must have been a much better man manager, what with having that really tricky task of getting the best out of Dravid, Tendulkar and Laxman. Only three of the finest batsmen of their generation, in their prime. I would suggest he could have done with a bowling attack, but then the current one actually looks even more toothless due to missing what was back then a very dangerous Bhaji and a legend in Kumble. Meanwhile, where Dhoni should have been able to rely on them, he has instead found them reaching the end of their form.

Take Glen McGrath. A fantastic bowler. One of the finest bowlers the game has ever seen, and quite frankly Zaheer Khan wouldn't get near. Now, this was a man who could have easily rested on his laurels, but instead he worked incredibly hard on his batting and became a very handy number 11, and even batted at 10. He taught himself, for his team, to be able to stay in and fight so that better batsmen could add more runs (people like Gilchrist).

In England, with India in trouble, people like Zaheer Khan came out and basically said, "naaah, don't fancy this, swing, swing, out." Considering Zaheer quite clearly has more talent with a bat, or rather, a better eye than McGrath had, surely someone with a good attitude would have worked on his batting? His seems to have actually gotten worse. That stinks of poor attitude to me. No one is denying his talent, but with this hypothesising of poor attitude, is it any wonder that when India have fallen behind in their recent games, they have not at any point been able to fight back.

People, keep referencing England against Pakistan. Maybe I'm biased, I can't say unfortunately, but to me England kept fighting, and kept trying regardless of how bad it got. As the batting struggled more, the bowling got better and better. The team responded as a team to their shortcomings, although obviously, in the end, they were outplayed and outclassed.

Maybe I could have picked a better analogy, but I stand by my claim, that I'm closer to a potential truth, than your sweeping dismissal

heh, sweeping dismissal, sounds like an English batsmen on a slow turner :P

 

[Sedition]

hmmm . So if a few people from your country seem to be racist does it mean that all the aussies are potential racist ?

Everyone in the world could potentially be racist, it doesn't mean that they are or will be in the future, but obviously there will be some amongst 7 billion potentials. Does that make my use of the word clearer?

 

[Atharv]

Everyone in the world could potentially be racist, it doesn't mean that they are or will be in the future, but obviously there will be some amongst 7 billion potentials. Does that make my use of the word clearer?

Thankyou for the intense beam of enlightenment. So you are suggesting that aussies are also potentially racist and/or idiots ? So I guess only mistake slickr392 made was he did not precede his "adjectives" with the word "potential". If he had done that then it would have been okay ?

 

[Sedition]

Naturally if he worded his comments differently, I may not have found them offensive.

 

[Atharv]

He didn't initially get the chance with his first call ups. They brought him into the squad, said he needed to go work on his fitness and sent him home. It was only after intial improvement that he was given a chance.

Are you honestly telling me that Sehwag was trying in England? He didn't even field, let alone bother trying to bat (I know he only played a test). Raina at no point tried to show any kind of application, in the field they looked disinterested.

You put a lot of stock in the captain, yes he has a job to do, but even at basic club level, you expect the senior players to step up and be counted. To be offering advice, to show calm heads when batting. To not throw their wickets away. If all the players who got injured weren't fit, or were too tired, they should have given their places to someone else. This is not a sunday team full of a couple of 13 year olds and some adults. This was the recently crowned number 1 test team, world cup winners, and a team full of experience, apparently complimented with talented youth.

If that was India trying, I'd hate to see them when they really don't care

Personally I think you've missed the point of a team sport. This isn't golf, this isn't tennis. Even the best football teams will sell someone if they don't fit the team dynamic. Even supposedly selfish players like Kallis still fight for their team, they still contribute in every way they can. Have some of India's players really shown that kind of drive in the field when things look tough?

Regards to Ganguly, he must have been a much better man manager, what with having that really tricky task of getting the best out of Dravid, Tendulkar and Laxman. Only three of the finest batsmen of their generation, in their prime. I would suggest he could have done with a bowling attack, but then the current one actually looks even more toothless due to missing what was back then a very dangerous Bhaji and a legend in Kumble. Meanwhile, where Dhoni should have been able to rely on them, he has instead found them reaching the end of their form.

Take Glen McGrath. A fantastic bowler. One of the finest bowlers the game has ever seen, and quite frankly Zaheer Khan wouldn't get near. Now, this was a man who could have easily rested on his laurels, but instead he worked incredibly hard on his batting and became a very handy number 11, and even batted at 10. He taught himself, for his team, to be able to stay in and fight so that better batsmen could add more runs (people like Gilchrist).

In England, with India in trouble, people like Zaheer Khan came out and basically said, "naaah, don't fancy this, swing, swing, out." Considering Zaheer quite clearly has more talent with a bat, or rather, a better eye than McGrath had, surely someone with a good attitude would have worked on his batting? His seems to have actually gotten worse. That stinks of poor attitude to me. No one is denying his talent, but with this hypothesising of poor attitude, is it any wonder that when India have fallen behind in their recent games, they have not at any point been able to fight back.

People, keep referencing England against Pakistan. Maybe I'm biased, I can't say unfortunately, but to me England kept fighting, and kept trying regardless of how bad it got. As the batting struggled more, the bowling got better and better. The team responded as a team to their shortcomings, although obviously, in the end, they were outplayed and outclassed.

Maybe I could have picked a better analogy, but I stand by my claim, that I'm closer to a potential truth, than your sweeping dismissal

heh, sweeping dismissal, sounds like an English batsmen on a slow turner :P

Phew !!! That is a long write-up .

Sehwag should not have been on that tour. Period . No player , be it Sachin,Bradman,Dravid, Lara or any other cricketing great, can get on the field and succeed , especially if it is in the conditions that are testing and alien to him, especially if the opposite team is very good, especially if he is an opening batsman . It was amusing to see Sehwag in England after the operation without any practice under his belt. I was hoping he would succeed but knew it was almost impossible . Getting Sehwag into the team was Skippers call . He made a horribly wrong choice .

Captain persisted with Murali Vijay even though it was quite clear that he was not fit for any form of international cricket . Openers should have been tried in windies tests . Instead Dhoni continued with Murali. I guess why he did it is clear to everybody . Same with Raina . Dhoni has enough clout with BCCI to get the players he wants . He did not use it for the betterment of the team. Even after openers were struggling and bowlers were injured the replacement he asked was RP Singh . He did not ask for somebody like Jaffer as a temporary replacement for opening slot, who was playing cricket in England at that time,who is a specialist opener and who was in decent nick .

Sachin is the one of the first guys to offer inputs to players and captains . Laxman and Dravid also do it . Have you seen them when they are standing in slips . They are certainly not talking weather with Dhoni . So to say that experienced players do not offer help to Dhoni is something even Dhoni would not agree with. But if skipper insists on making wrong choices then no amount of input is going to help you .

The better Zak has got with bat the more the opposition bowlers has targeted his head and fingers . It is understandable. If you take out the only successful opposition bowler out of the equation it helps(the ball did "slip" out of Lee's hand when Yadav was batting, didn't it.). However hard he might try , Zak will always be a tail ender . It is one thing once in a while to dig in and save your team .It is another thing to expect him to do it regularly . It is being unfair to him.

 

[SLICKR392]

Naturally if he worded his comments differently, I may not have found them offensive.

Awww! Am I supposed to be sorry Sedition Paaji ?

 

[Sedition]

That would be like Japan having sympathy for the US after being bombed wouldn't it? Since another thread just got locked for stupidity and I feel my braincells dying from this one, I'll leave you guys to it.

 

[puddleduck]

You clearly don't like him Atharv, I'm trying to remain balanced here. You seem to pin all the blame on Dhoni. Who's to say that the terrible field setting wasn't Sachin's idea? You suggest that they offer him the support, yet seem to know that every mistake is his?

I think you're being fairly one dimensional in your analysis, but we will have to agree to disagree.

I can think of more innings in the last year or two (in all forms) where I have seen Dhoni top score from down the order, having been let down yet again by his suposed stalwarts. He is criticised for sticking with someone like Vijay, by you, and apparently has the clout to influence the selectors? How are you so sure of all this? You seem very quick to make him the scapegoat?

Will have to agree to disagree I guess

 

[BKB1991]

Dhonis captaincy has gone down no question but a captain is always as good as his team. People keep forgetting the miracles he has produced for India with the bowling attack they have. As a captain you cant do much when barring one or two players, no one bothers to turn up in the game

 

[Rohit Doshi]

Exactly people criticize Mahendra Singh Dhoni but they dont realize that its not always the captain who things on field. Other people contribute too and if they dont then I guess Greg Chappel is right

 

[Atharv]

You clearly don't like him Atharv, I'm trying to remain balanced here. You seem to pin all the blame on Dhoni. Who's to say that the terrible field setting wasn't Sachin's idea? You suggest that they offer him the support, yet seem to know that every mistake is his?

I think you're being fairly one dimensional in your analysis, but we will have to agree to disagree.

I can think of more innings in the last year or two (in all forms) where I have seen Dhoni top score from down the order, having been let down yet again by his suposed stalwarts. He is criticised for sticking with someone like Vijay, by you, and apparently has the clout to influence the selectors? How are you so sure of all this? You seem very quick to make him the scapegoat?

Will have to agree to disagree I guess

I have nothing personal against him. If you check my profile you will see that MSD and Sachin are my favourite players . So there is no personal like or dislike. Heck, I even tried to play the helicopter shot(which was played by Sandip Patil for the first time in that match when he hit 6 fours in an inning against England.I watched it some time back on starsports archive matches. The commentators had no idea what kind of shot that was . ) in the nets .
Sachin or any other player might rattle off 100 suggestions per second. Giving inputs is quite natural . Almost all players give inputs to skipper . But which inputs you implement and do you implement them in totality or you just modify it a bit, is the captain's call.
When you know that something is not working then why would you persist with it ? Be it on field or off the field . You should change it . In tests Dhoni does not seem to be aware of this .
And his man-management skills have been questioned for sometime now. I have posted about it in some other post. So not going to repeat it.
If you do not know that Dhoni has immense clout with BCCI then you clearly do not follow Indian cricket. And he enjoys this clout not because he has been the captain of two world cup winning teams but due to other reasons. If I am right there has been no captain in history of Indian cricket who has lost 8 overseas test back to back, who has been the captain of two humiliating white washes , the margin of loss has been appalling , there has been no captain in the history of India cricket who has dared the selection committee by saying that you cannot replace me , you have nobody to replace me with (when their are some much better and able candidates in the team).He does this because he knows he can get away with it.
Dhoni is a batsman-wicket keeper not a wikcetkeeper-batsman.He is in the team beacuse of his batting skills(?) and as a captain. He is not a great wicketkeeper.some body like Saha or Karthik have better keeping skills than him. But as a batsman he hasn't been great in tests.
Dhoni in ODI's is not a problem, Dhoni is tests is.
If you think abt these views in a certain way I cannot help it.
Finally, if ppl give bouquets to some body and he accepts it , then ppl should not mind criticism leveled at him, especially for valid reasons .