New Zealand in England May - June 2013

[War]

Guptill is horrible, why do people think he should be in the test team? Maybe in the middle order, but no way he should be allowed at the top. Vettori isn't fit enough to play test cricket now, and he is pretty ineffective even when he does. Doesn't take wickets anymore so is a bad option, and his batting form has also suffered from his lack of cricket. I doubt he will tour England.

I don't think Ryder will go either, he will if he makes himself available but I don't think he will from what I've heard.

Horrible is a bit harsh way to describe Guptill to be fair. Sure he hasn't made runs in tests, but he is a talented player. If a limited player like Fulton can come back & score hundreds vs this English attack - Guptill should feel he can do the same given his ability.

Yea Vetorri's wicket-taking ability in tests has certainly declined - but Bruce Martin didn't look too much better in this series. So i guess Vettori's all-round package may still be more useful. But i reckon playing a 4-man attack could be a long-term option for the kiwis.

Don't know if Ryder will be available for ENG tour, just was saying whenever he does come back - he will obviously make the middle-order stronger.

Guptill
Fulton/Rutherford
Williamson
Taylor
Ryder
McCullum
Watling
Bracewell
Southee
Bolt
McClenaghan

12th man: Vettori

Solid looking team that.

 

[Manly]

Just seen the Panesar dive.


Then I searched for and found the TMS commentary for it.

Sensational!

 

[Epic]

Horrible is a bit harsh way to describe Guptill to be fair. Sure he hasn't made runs in tests, but he is a talented player. If a limited player like Fulton can come back & score hundreds vs this English attack - Guptill should feel he can do the same given his ability.

Yea Vetorri's wicket-taking ability in tests has certainly declined - but Bruce Martin didn't look too much better in this series. So i guess Vettori's all-round package may still be more useful. But i reckon playing a 4-man attack could be a long-term option for the kiwis.

Don't know if Ryder will be available for ENG tour, just was saying whenever he does come back - he will obviously make the middle-order stronger.

Guptill
Fulton/Rutherford
Williamson
Taylor
Ryder
McCullum
Watling
Bracewell
Southee
Bolt
McClenaghan

12th man: Vettori

Solid looking team that.

Good luck meeting the over rate with a 4 man pace attack.

 

[MUFC1987]

Ah, gotta say we make life interesting for everyone watching.

Top stuff from Prior and even Broad, showing that he can in fact face a number of balls without picking out a fielder in the deep.

Also on New Zealand, why isn't McCullum keeping wicket? Batting down the order means he gets plenty of rest and would be a good way to get in an extra batsman/all-rounder.

 

[Epic]

It's a weird one, I guess he feels he can't do both roles as well as say he would do one?

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AB de Villiers is another one, he didn't want to keep in Tests for a long time, and it was only after Mark Boucher went down with that career ending injury that he took up the role.

 

[sifter132]

Prior was the difference - but I didn't see a lot of discipline from him. He's meant to be playing for a draw, but still reached for a lot of balls well outside off to drive through point and was pretty compulsive on his pull shot. Luckily he's got the talent to ensure those shots don't get him out TOO often, but if I were an England fan I would have had my heart in my mouth right til the end with him in there. That desire to always be hitting the ball is a definite weakness to exploit in future.

Was great theatre at the end. Always fun to see inventive and attacking fields as well. Was wondering if Williamson could do the 3 wickets in an over to win a Test, like Michael Clarke did vs India in 2007/08.

 

[umosay]

McCullum's knees aren't up to keeping in tests anymore. Wants to prolong his career, BJ Watling is a good selection and will just get better with time.

@War: Absolutely NO way you change this opening pair for Guptill. Guptill is gunning for a middle order/cover spot if at all. His technique and mental side just isn't goo enough. He has no hundreds vs top 8 teams in nearly 60 test innings! It's dire reading. His average of 30 is even lifted by 185 against Bangladesh and other minnow bashing efforts. I want to see him prove he can score runs at first class level first in the longer form stuff, Fulton did, Guptill hasn't.

Martin was average, Vettori clone, but Vettori is worse. He retired from the wrong format as he's a great short form bowler. Williamson is our most threatening spinner but only gets 1/10th the overs of our specialists, who do nothing at all. Just bowl and bowl hoping for a wicket (Vettori...) If a bowler isn't even threatening why bowl him 39 overs??? Martin bowled FAR too many.

^^^Can not blame Prior at all for playing his shots. He would be more likely to get out being bogged down not scoring runs as he would flashing at wide ones. He had his fair amount of luck, mind you.

 

[War]

Good luck meeting the over rate with a 4 man pace attack.

4-man pace attacks hardly effect over-rates, once teams efficiently get on with the business in the field.

AUS, ENG & S Africa have played 4-man attack at various stages in recent years & meeting over-rates never an issue.

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@War: Absolutely NO way you change this opening pair for Guptill. Guptill is gunning for a middle order/cover spot if at all. His technique and mental side just isn't goo enough. He has no hundreds vs top 8 teams in nearly 60 test innings! It's dire reading. His average of 30 is even lifted by 185 against Bangladesh and other minnow bashing efforts. I want to see him prove he can score runs at first class level first in the longer form stuff, Fulton did, Guptill hasn't.

Martin was average, Vettori clone, but Vettori is worse. He retired from the wrong format as he's a great short form bowler. Williamson is our most threatening spinner but only gets 1/10th the overs of our specialists, who do nothing at all. Just bowl and bowl hoping for a wicket (Vettori...) If a bowler isn't even threatening why bowl him 39 overs??? Martin bowled FAR too many.

Fair enough on Guptill if you think technically he is a below par for tests at the moment. That's certainly a good reasons to persist with Fulton/Rutherford for now.

On Martin/Vettori, yea agreed. Vettori bowling has regressed while his batting has improved. Even a stronger reason to pick four quicks more often & only pick a spinner unless the pitch is serious turner.

 

[Epic]

4-man pace attacks hardly effect over-rates, once teams efficiently get on with the business in the field.

AUS, ENG & S Africa have played 4-man attack at various stages in recent years & meeting over-rates never an issue.

I don't know if hardly is the right word there, they effect the over-rates a lot, can't handle a 4-man pace attack say the same way you would a 3-man pace attack with a spinner and that's where sides tend to struggle.

Fair enough on Guptill if you think technically he is a below par for tests at the moment. That's certainly a good reasons to persist with Fulton/Rutherford for now.

On Martin/Vettori, yea agreed. Vettori bowling has regressed while his batting has improved. Even a stronger reason to pick four quicks more often & only pick a spinner unless the pitch is serious turner.

I thought Martin bowled very well in the 1st two Tests, but it was this one where the team needed him the most and he couldn't deliver, just never found the right length tbh.

 

[umosay]

4-man pace attacks hardly effect over-rates, once teams efficiently get on with the business in the field.

AUS, ENG & S Africa have played 4-man attack at various stages in recent years & meeting over-rates never an issue.

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Fair enough on Guptill if you think technically he is a below par for tests at the moment. That's certainly a good reasons to persist with Fulton/Rutherford for now.

On Martin/Vettori, yea agreed. Vettori bowling has regressed while his batting has improved. Even a stronger reason to pick four quicks more often & only pick a spinner unless the pitch is serious turner.

Yeah, the main point on Guptill vs Fulton is Fulton learnt from his mistakes. Even when he was struggling he still scored runs, he fights very well and is obviously a bit stronger mentally than Gup atm. I do think Gup has the goods for the middle order, much like McCullum has prospered since moving there - he's just no good against the new red ball. Think of Astle, opened in short form and was middle order in tests.

 

[War]

I don't know if hardly is the right word there, they effect the over-rates a lot, can't handle a 4-man pace attack say the same way you would a 3-man pace attack with a spinner and that's where sides tend to struggle.

It depends on the game scenario a lot & the quality of the 4-man. If its a situation like MCG 2010 or Headingley 2012 when AUS/ENG played 4-quicks vs ENG & SA respectively & were not penetrative & concede a massive total - obviously the quicks can get tired, take longer to go back to their mark & complete overs - then yea over-rates become a problem.

But the times AUS, ENG, SA have used 4-man attacks in the last 2-3 years they have blown throw opposition sides pretty quickly & thus over-rates wasn't an issue.

So the team that plays such a all-pace attack has to believe that its pacers are good enough to have more days when it can take 20 wickets quickly enough - more than they would have long days in the field chasing leather.

I reckon that NZ pace options can be the former - especially in current times where flat pitches are not as prominent as it was in the 1st part of the 2000s era.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

actually was thinking recently that Prior was slipping off his perch as one of the best wicket keeper bats and that quite a few other wicketkeepers were beginning to edge ahead of him (though Ab is still the best currently) but that's put him right back up there.

 

[WubbaLubbaDubDub]

Well, as I said Prior and England tail has been removing England from trouble from a long time now and its due failing some time soon. But I still want them to win the Ashes both of them

 

[Sedition]

Funny that I haven't seen mention of NZ's blunder in letting Panesar off strike in the final over. I guess it's all the English journos crapping on about the test and the Kiwis would rather forget it.

Not in the spirit of the game to knock the ball those few extra metres for a boundary? Different story if you simply don't chase and let it roll over on it's own?

 

[umosay]

Funny that I haven't seen mention of NZ's blunder in letting Panesar off strike in the final over. I guess it's all the English journos crapping on about the test and the Kiwis would rather forget it.

Not in the spirit of the game to knock the ball those few extra metres for a boundary? Different story if you simply don't chase and let it roll over on it's own?

The ball stopped well short of the boundary, would have been a bad move to kick it over, really bad. Boult was going for the yorker but it was a touch full, just enough for Panesar to hit straight. Had to try it.

This test/series is why I support the Black Caps through thick and thin, I know they have some great talent coming through and this was finally a realisation of some of that, as well as some old heads standing up. More importantly, the mix of the side is right, not McCullum trying to open or Guptill failing time after time.