New Zealand tour of England - May/June 2015

[PokerAce]

Reading the comments about Moenn Ali, I feel ppl are a little confused about his role in the Eng side. He is not meant to be picking up 5 wickets every innings. If he can pick up 3-5 wickets every match (both innings combined), then I think he more than fulfills the role of the 5th bowler. Wood is someone I have a feeling we will be hearing a lot of. He has pace and once he settles into Int'l cricket, he will deliver big results for England.

The advantage that Moenn gives is that he is a more than useful bat and really provides depth to the England line up. In the first innings he did provide a very handy 50 from lower down the order that was invaluable in the context of the test at that point.

3 wickets a match and a good 40 runs with the bat lower down, Moenn is an invaluable member of the side.

 

[blockerdave]

Reading the comments about Moenn Ali, I feel ppl are a little confused about his role in the Eng side. He is not meant to be picking up 5 wickets every innings. If he can pick up 3-5 wickets every match (both innings combined), then I think he more than fulfills the role of the 5th bowler. Wood is someone I have a feeling we will be hearing a lot of. He has pace and once he settles into Int'l cricket, he will deliver big results for England.

The advantage that Moenn gives is that he is a more than useful bat and really provides depth to the England line up. In the first innings he did provide a very handy 50 from lower down the order that was invaluable in the context of the test at that point.

3 wickets a match and a good 40 runs with the bat lower down, Moenn is an invaluable member of the side.

to be fair, i'm not sure that really is Ali's role, and if it was, he's still not really meeting that. you've essentially described the Ashley Giles role, and we're close to that set up with 4 seamers including an all rounder, but Ali isn't giving us that control.

essentially we either want/need an attacking spinner who will take wickets and be a threat on days 4/5, or someone who will give us control allowing us to rotate seamers at the other end / use up the old ball if it's not reversing. at the moment Ali isn't quite doing either of these things... I think he could well develop into the attacking option - we should show patience, he is coming back from injury and hasn't bowled that much this season.

 

[cooks1st100]

Reading the comments about Moenn Ali, I feel ppl are a little confused about his role in the Eng side.

He is in the side as the main spin bowling option. If he cannot fulfill this role then he will be dropped, mark my words.

 

[Deleted member 149013]

Ali has been a very useful member of the team so far and I reckon will be a great batsman in years to come so I don’t think anything will be gained by dropping Ali he needs time.

Giles was about the worst spinner I have seen but we still won the ashes despite that. Rashid would be a choice and move Ali up the order then there is Kerrigan who was a bag of nerves on his debut.

Tredwell I can see New Zealand or Australia taking him apart he is ok against lower opposition. If you bring in Borthwick he will need time so don’t think there is an easy fix for this one.

Panesar well his strange behaviour for one thing and if he got a wicket will he take a dump in the batsman’s helmet.

New Zealand you could say have a similar problem with Craig he didn’t have any control and are missing Verttori.

 

[cooks1st100]

As I said during the test you can see that NZ have similar quandaries to England in that they seem to be reliant on Southee and Boult in the bowling department.

Say what you like about Giles he did what was required of him and that was to tie up an end.

I'm not advocating dropping Ali at all but I'm concerned that he may not be good enough to be in the team as a spin bowler although that remains to be seen and I think this summer will either make or break him. As an individual he comes across well in interviews, has great energy in the field and can obviously bat, but what we need is a spinner who can win games when the wicket is not helpful to the pace attack. Otherwise we may as well just use Root.

 

[PokerAce]

to be fair, i'm not sure that really is Ali's role, and if it was, he's still not really meeting that. you've essentially described the Ashley Giles role, and we're close to that set up with 4 seamers including an all rounder, but Ali isn't giving us that control.

essentially we either want/need an attacking spinner who will take wickets and be a threat on days 4/5, or someone who will give us control allowing us to rotate seamers at the other end / use up the old ball if it's not reversing. at the moment Ali isn't quite doing either of these things... I think he could well develop into the attacking option - we should show patience, he is coming back from injury and hasn't bowled that much this season.

He is in the side as the main spin bowling option. If he cannot fulfill this role then he will be dropped, mark my words.

Again I think both of you are ignoring the job he does with the bat lower down the order for England. That added with the 2-3 wickets he takes every match is an overall contribution, that I think far exceeds something that just a spinner with those two extra wickets, but without the runs lower down the order would have.

If there was say a Shane Warne in the waiting, I would be all for dropping Ali. However, while England could replace him with a spinner slightly better than Ali, but the trade-off in regard to the runs and resistance lower down the order that England would end up losing out on, is not worth it.

Moenn Ali with his batting at #8 and the three wickets per match, is overall a better option for England than a spinner who would take 5 wickets but not score the runs lower down the order.

 

[blockerdave]

Again I think both of you are ignoring the job he does with the bat lower down the order for England. That added with the 2-3 wickets he takes every match is an overall contribution, that I think far exceeds something that just a spinner with those two extra wickets, but without the runs lower down the order would have.

Quite the opposite, I mentioned the Giles role and that included being a useful lower order batsman.

Now Ali is a better batsman than Giles was, much better, nevertheless I don't think he is good enough for a top 6 role, so as Cookie says, he's in as the front line spinner. Right now he has to live or die mostly by that... I think he should have enough credit in the bank for now, but it could be a tough summer for him.

So far he seems to be more of a threat earlier in the game. Maybe that's because he's attacking enough to get wickets when guys go after him, but if they're shutting up shop to save a game he hasn't quite got the guile, maybe he bowls better to defensive fields, maybe it's a temperament thing, maybe it's a statistical quirk from a small sample - he's not played many games.

Eventually though, he's either having to become a much better batsman to demand a place in the top 6, or settle into either an attacking or containing spinner role. For me, at present he's sort of a bits and pieces player, not quite the real deal in either department. But I don't see any other spinner out there who is obviously a better bet, and he's a young guy who deserves a decent shot.

 

[bigred]

I think that Ali is a great guy and always interviews well. He's a good bat, good fielder and an improving bowler. However, if Rashid continues to take wickets, then he might put him under pressure.

I like the look of the eleven that played at lord's though, and I thought that Cook captained very well.

 

[Deleted member 149013]

As I said during the test you can see that NZ have similar quandaries to England in that they seem to be reliant on Southee and Boult in the bowling department.

Say what you like about Giles he did what was required of him and that was to tie up an end.

I'm not advocating dropping Ali at all but I'm concerned that he may not be good enough to be in the team as a spin bowler although that remains to be seen and I think this summer will either make or break him. As an individual he comes across well in interviews, has great energy in the field and can obviously bat, but what we need is a spinner who can win games when the wicket is not helpful to the pace attack. Otherwise we may as well just use Root.

That’s a good point with New Zealand there were always turning to Southee and Boult. I mean Boult was bowling really well especially dangerous to the left handers. Don’t think we have seen the best of Southee yet.

It was a tough pitch and yet a standard pitch now in England and it’s a shame that we have lost the character in pitches. I think it’s a problem with undersoil drainage sucking all the moisture from the wicket. It makes for better batting but takes the personality away from what that ground was known for. Hope Headingley has a better surface..

 

[IceAgeComing]

The issue as I see it is that you can only afford to have one of Stokes and Ali; because they both play that all-rounder rule without being particularly good front-line bowlers. Stokes had a good last innings with the ball, but he was terrible in the West Indies and isn't consistently good enough imo to be in your top 4 bowlers; while Moeen is decent; but again I think would only work as a fifth bowler.

Playing both creates a very unbalanced team that admittedly bats deep - but batting down to 8 shouldn't be something to aim for if it forces you to sacrifice your bowling attack - but might struggle to take wickets against strong teams (I still can't believe that we managed to take twenty wickets in that game). I think that you should pick your four main bowlers based entirely on their bowling and then your fifth bowler can be an all-rounder since that creates a much more balanced team. The issue is that this means that you have the choice of dropping Stokes which after the last game would be incredibly dumb or bringing in a spinner for Moeen and I'm struggling to think of international quality English spinners at the moment. Rashid has bowled well in the last few Championship games and isn't a slouch with the bat (he scored 99 against Somerset in the last round of Championship games), people talk about Borthwick and Kerrigan but the former never gets to bowl at Durham so we can't really say anything and the latter is averaging 26 in Division 2; which isn't particularly great. The second lowest average in Championship Division 1 for an English spinner that isn't a part timer that got a fluke wicket is Samit Patel; that should demonstrate just how bare England's spin bowling capabilities are. Although this is from early summer games where seamers dominate... Perhaps if we had taken a second spinner on tour with us earlier this year to try him out to see what he has, that would have been good...

In terms of Wood, he looks good but he looks like a player that needs to be managed while he's young - I'd personally play Plunkett or someone else in the second Test just to let us know what we have available if one of our main seamers goes down with an injury during the Ashes...

 

[cooks1st100]

Just got home, turned on the cricket and Jimmy takes his 400th wicket next ball! Looks like today is going to be a stop start day of cricket.

 

[richowebbo]

The issue as I see it is that you can only afford to have one of Stokes and Ali; because they both play that all-rounder rule without being particularly good front-line bowlers. Stokes had a good last innings with the ball, but he was terrible in the West Indies and isn't consistently good enough imo to be in your top 4 bowlers; while Moeen is decent; but again I think would only work as a fifth bowler.

Playing both creates a very unbalanced team that admittedly bats deep - but batting down to 8 shouldn't be something to aim for if it forces you to sacrifice your bowling attack - but might struggle to take wickets against strong teams (I still can't believe that we managed to take twenty wickets in that game). I think that you should pick your four main bowlers based entirely on their bowling and then your fifth bowler can be an all-rounder since that creates a much more balanced team. The issue is that this means that you have the choice of dropping Stokes which after the last game would be incredibly dumb or bringing in a spinner for Moeen and I'm struggling to think of international quality English spinners at the moment. Rashid has bowled well in the last few Championship games and isn't a slouch with the bat (he scored 99 against Somerset in the last round of Championship games), people talk about Borthwick and Kerrigan but the former never gets to bowl at Durham so we can't really say anything and the latter is averaging 26 in Division 2; which isn't particularly great. The second lowest average in Championship Division 1 for an English spinner that isn't a part timer that got a fluke wicket is Samit Patel; that should demonstrate just how bare England's spin bowling capabilities are. Although this is from early summer games where seamers dominate... Perhaps if we had taken a second spinner on tour with us earlier this year to try him out to see what he has, that would have been good...

In terms of Wood, he looks good but he looks like a player that needs to be managed while he's young - I'd personally play Plunkett or someone else in the second Test just to let us know what we have available if one of our main seamers goes down with an injury during the Ashes...

I think it takes a fair amount of time for a bowler to get used to bowling in Test Cricket. I think Stokes can be a decent front line quick if he gets given the time he needs to get better.

As for Ali, if he's batting 8, seems that there are better spinners in County Cricket who should get picked. I like Moeen, and I think he's a good batter, but it seems that Cook trusts Root with the ball just as much as Moeen, so may as well pick a proper spinner.

Great to see Cook back in the runs. I've said it before, if he's making runs it becomes easier to swallow his captaincy.

 

[ParkedTheBus]

Wonder how the ICC even assigns the umpires for tests.. Ravi looks out of his depth here, how he's been selected to officiate a test match is a mystery. Best umpires need to officiate the best matches.

 

[cooks1st100]

Haven't seen a lot of today's play, England seem in control though for the time being. Good on Lyth getting a century at his home ground, will do his confidence a load of good and hope he can repeat this elsewhere.

As for New Zealand as much as I enjoy their attacking play, they gave away their wicket's far too often yesterday and as a result have finished a good hundred runs short on what appears to be a very good batting track. England's bowling at the tail was once again woeful, something that has been a problem for a while. Broad going for over 6 an over. Was this Cook showing that he isn't a defensive captain? Anyhow, another good knock from him and starting to feel a tad more positive about the Ashes.

@Davoo what have I missed regarding the umpiring?

Once again Ballance stuck in the crease and mopped up.He's a walking wicket in my opinion!

 

[cooks1st100]

Haven't seen a lot of today's play, England seem in control though for the time being.

Anyhow, another good knock from him and starting to feel a tad more positive about the Ashes.

Bugger. That'll teach me!!