South Africa in England July-Sept 2012

[badvintage]

Not sure who to blame ECB or KP. ECB has a point- no player is bigger than the game itself especially if one present their point forcefully and arrogantly. ECB will need to decide as to who they want in the team. Someone brilliant like KP (though inconsistent) or some one less brilliant but a true team player. But as you know now, it's always about the money and he hasn't been on his form lately. Going in and out.

 

[War]

'It's absolutely not about money' - Pietersen | Cricket videos, MP3, podcasts, cricket audio at ESPN Cricinfo

The big man speaks.

 

[Owzat]

Not the best bat? You'll have to sell that one.

I'm not convinced KP is the be all and end all, he can get you big innings but then he can get himself out trying to dominate bowlers. His consistency isn't that great. 141 innings since the Ashes in 2005, 35 scores of under 10 and a more worrying 62 scores where he's reached double figures but got out for less than 50. 1/4 of his scores since the 2005 Ashes have been between 30 and 70, so he gets in and gets (himself) out.

I'd say Cook is our most dependable runscorer

100/50 per innings

34.03% Cook (144 inns, 100 x20, 50 x29)
31.79% Pietersen (151 inns, 100 x21, 50 x27)
31.58% Trott (57 inns, 100 x7, 50 x11)

Cook has the better conversion rate in terms of 50s, KP fractionally ahead in terms of 100s.


And form in the past few years, last two then a bit before that

10/11-2012

Cook : 36 inns, 2181 runs @ 66.09
Bell : 33 inns, 1602 runs @ 61.62
Pietersen : 34 inns, 1770 runs @ 55.31
Trott : 33 inns, 1373 runs @ 47.34
Strauss : 36 inns, 1239 runs @ 34.42

You can make a case for KP being ahead of Bell, more runs per innings. Strauss is hanging on, but if we did replace him then with whom?

2008-2010

Trott : 23 inns, 1155 runs @ 55.00
Strauss : 52 inns, 2274 runs @ 46.41
Pietersen : 48 inns, 2023 runs @ 44.96
Bell : 34 inns, 1318 runs @ 42.52
Cook : 56 inns, 2233 runs @ 42.13


KP is great when it comes off, awful when it doesn't. It is a shame England didn't play Swann, while KP did well with the ball who knows how much quicker and cheaper we might have run through the saffers with a proper spinner in the side and decent catcher.

England cannot risk playing five bowlers next match, I think the saffers will put up a wall of batting if it is that flat and pick off our weakened line-up. As for the questions raised by TMS as to why Prior didn't bat higher in the 2nd innings, perhaps they wanted him to come in and play Tahir. I think we have to play Swann, Swann in for Bresnan/Finn and that will be the side we should have played here

 

[angryangy]

KP is great when it comes off, awful when it doesn't.

Which is the only possibility above being awful regardless of whether runs are made or not.

 

[Aditya]

Just watched the video of the press conference. Pietersen looks pretty upset with what is going on, off the field. I just don't want him to retire from tests too, it would be a big shame for the England team but more importantly for all the cricket fans all around the world. ECB and KP need to sort out their issues of long time.

 

[Gaurav_7]

It was a fantastic last session and a half. Stayed up for basically this. It was great to see England sending Pietersen out to open and having a shot at the target. Steyn was steaming in! Loved that spell of his. Test Cricket at it's very best. Give us a 5 match series, please!

 

[Owzat]

Which is the only possibility above being awful regardless of whether runs are made or not.

I think you're missing the point, some batsmen make runs and are dismissed by a good ball, KP goes out and when his aggressive and attacking shots come off everyone is going on about it being the/his best innings ever, but too often it just looks awful when he gets out - like the 2nd innings dismissal. EDIT - in fairness that dismissal is not the best example, but even in different circumstances he gets out like that.

Or put another way, his approach has either brilliant or godawful dismissal written all over it. Players can be dismissed cheaply without being irresponsible for their own dismissal.......................

 

[MUFC1987]

The IPL vs NZ test series clash relates to what i said about the situation that current international players face given how the BCCI has manipulated the ICC by having such T20 leagues and crammed schedules. You have to look at it in a broader spectrum.

World cricket really should have a window for one T20 league (not necessarily the IPL in the current form, but this is what it is for now unless something drastic happens) so that all the best players in the world can go - earn their big bucks without controversy and worries about clashes with international assignments.


While English fans can't criticism him for a world cricket dilemma that is out of his control, since he clearly committed to England - but at the same time has the right to earn as much money as his wonderful talent deserves in this horrendous jam-packed cricket calendar.

I've already said if he wants to go off and just play T20 leagues, then I won't be bothered by it. It's his life, he has the right to what he wants. I'm not one of those guys who thinks he has to play for England, if he plays cricket. I'm just saying, he has to either be willing to play for England, or not. He can't be in the middle. You always find ways to shoehorn the BCCI into discussions and about how the ICC and the other bodies like the ECB should be looking for more control, yet you're saying that the ECB should bow to KP's every whim? Let him do what he wants? If that's not a contradictory message, then I don't know what is.

Regarding a window for the IPL, that's not the issue, because I'm discussing what currently exists. At the moment it clashes and for me, players who want to be Test players (or whatever form of the game) for England, should be available for those games. That's my point of view and hopefully one the ECB shares. If we let the players dictate, then it becomes a joke, because we could have a whole team not wanting to play against Bangladesh or something, which dilutes the game as far as I'm concerned. And that's without getting into the public paying to see the first XI and getting the backup XI. It's just not viable to be dictated too and I think it's a shame that other bodies allow that, although I appreciate that some just don't have the pool of players that England have to come into the team in place of those players. In short, either be committed or don't. With KP, I'm not bothered which way. If he stays, then great, play all the Tests. If he wants to do other things, then Good luck too him. Just don't mess everyone about by demanding that the ECB bow to his needs and to hell with the team.

 

[cricket_icon]

Ravi is out for personal reasons

What were those personal reasons? I never heard about them.

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Just looking over what happened in the second test, I was left wondering if England had selected the correct team. Leaving Swann out was disastrous. Once again I've been left underwhelmed by Bresnan and the fact that he is no longer a "lucky mascot" should be enough to have him dropped. He is meant to be an allrounder but his batting has not seen any improvements over the last two years. I'd stick with Finn and Swann. Finn has some real pace when he is fired up. If it wasn't for the rain I think the saffers might have edged out a win, their bowling seems to be in a league above England's. The one bright spot was Broad's go in the second innings, he was aggressive and managed to pull some life out of yet another docile pitch.

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I've already said if he wants to go off and just play T20 leagues, then I won't be bothered by it. It's his life, he has the right to what he wants. I'm not one of those guys who thinks he has to play for England, if he plays cricket. I'm just saying, he has to either be willing to play for England, or not. He can't be in the middle. You always find ways to shoehorn the BCCI into discussions and about how the ICC and the other bodies like the ECB should be looking for more control, yet you're saying that the ECB should bow to KP's every whim? Let him do what he wants? If that's not a contradictory message, then I don't know what is.

Regarding a window for the IPL, that's not the issue, because I'm discussing what currently exists. At the moment it clashes and for me, players who want to be Test players (or whatever form of the game) for England, should be available for those games. That's my point of view and hopefully one the ECB shares. If we let the players dictate, then it becomes a joke, because we could have a whole team not wanting to play against Bangladesh or something, which dilutes the game as far as I'm concerned. And that's without getting into the public paying to see the first XI and getting the backup XI. It's just not viable to be dictated too and I think it's a shame that other bodies allow that, although I appreciate that some just don't have the pool of players that England have to come into the team in place of those players. In short, either be committed or don't. With KP, I'm not bothered which way. If he stays, then great, play all the Tests. If he wants to do other things, then Good luck too him. Just don't mess everyone about by demanding that the ECB bow to his needs and to hell with the team.

Absolutely spot on!

 

[puddleduck]

I think this series is proving that Bresnan is one of those bowlers who are good enough against most of the average test teams and will score runs against most of the average attacks. However at the top level against the top opposition he's not really good enough at either.

Granted Finn hasn't exactly set this series on fire, but he's young, has natural pace, and so far has been a genuine wicket taker.

 

[War]

Its surprising to me how many england fans are saying (not really here but other forums) just get rid of him we have the depth anyway. If Pietersen didn't play this test England most likely would have lost. On a different note, when do you guys think Strauss will be given the boot? I never realised how poor hes been recently until I saw his average has dropped to 41 which is pretty poor given the current state of flat pitches and poor fast bowling.

Ye its a highly naive suggestion. England have gone through 4 # 6 batsmen since Collingwood have retired, with awful results.

As much as i rate Nick Compton and James Hildreth as potential test batsmen, to behave as if they are wonderful depth to come and replace what KP offers is madness.

 

[War]

I've already said if he wants to go off and just play T20 leagues, then I won't be bothered by it. It's his life, he has the right to what he wants. I'm not one of those guys who thinks he has to play for England, if he plays cricket. I'm just saying, he has to either be willing to play for England, or not. He can't be in the middle. You always find ways to shoehorn the BCCI into discussions and about how the ICC and the other bodies like the ECB should be looking for more control, yet you're saying that the ECB should bow to KP's every whim? Let him do what he wants? If that's not a contradictory message, then I don't know what is.


Regarding a window for the IPL, that's not the issue, because I'm discussing what currently exists. At the moment it clashes and for me, players who want to be Test players (or whatever form of the game) for England, should be available for those games. That's my point of view and hopefully one the ECB shares. If we let the players dictate, then it becomes a joke, because we could have a whole team not wanting to play against Bangladesh or something, which dilutes the game as far as I'm concerned. And that's without getting into the public paying to see the first XI and getting the backup XI. It's just not viable to be dictated too and I think it's a shame that other bodies allow that, although I appreciate that some just don't have the pool of players that England have to come into the team in place of those players. In short, either be committed or don't. With KP, I'm not bothered which way. If he stays, then great, play all the Tests. If he wants to do other things, then Good luck too him. Just don't mess everyone about by demanding that the ECB bow to his needs and to hell with the team.

If KP is fit and at the peak of his cricket ability why should he not be playing for England if he is playing cricket?. Its not like he is an old retired great Gilchrist, Warne, Murali - who is off playing T20 leagues and the teams don't them. So i don't understand that POV.

Also don't make it sound as if i'm picking on the BCCI and mooting that whole point. That is massive problem with world cricket, that most fans and journalist wish to ignore and it is directly related to the current KP vs ECB issue and previous Gayle vs Windies, NZ vs Bond problems.

The clash with the IPL and bilateral series is the problem that currently exists. So the not having a window for the IPL (not in its current form however) vs bilateral series is the dilemma that players should not have to face. Once such a window is in place, that would even cover for the very key problem as you suggested, that big players may want to skip series vs Bangladesh/NZ/ZIM.

Plus its not just about skipping weak teams either cause as i mentioned before the West Indies players Narine, Samuels, Russell missed the big home vs major nation, Australia recently. This further shows why the window is needed.

You cannot separate the two, turn a blind eye and expect players who are lucky enough to get an IPL contract to not want to want to take up the contract for "national pride".

One cannot speak from a fans perspective, put your self in shoes of a player for a minute.

Other less financial countries have not been dictated to by the players either. They have just realized that players have the right (albeit they are not as financially strong as the ECB to give the massive central contracts) to earn the big T20 deals and it modern climate of clashes - the board and the players need to negotiate.



Plus finally i never even implied that ENG should bow to KP's wishes, i suggested given the realities they should look to compromise with him. All KP apparently ever suggested according to what the ECB leaked to media is he wants to able to play the entire IPL next year and miss the NZ series, before the Ashes.

Looking at what England has ahead:

- 5 ODI series vs S Africa and Lord's test
- 4 test tour tour and ODI/T20 in India
- 3 tests, 3 ODI/T20 in NZ

Is KP really being that unreasonable by asking to miss 2 tests and 3 ODI's vs NZ to play the entire IPL if he plays in all those series beforehand. Especially when NZ's big players like McCullum, Taylor, Vettori, Ryder may miss most of that series as well??

A team is only as good as its depth, so why can't that be seen as an opportunity to try out a young batsman a run?

The two rich cricket nations in England and Australia given they pay great for the past couple years compared to less financially strong NZ, WI, PAK, SRI, SA have had not faced this issue before.English and Aussie players generally make enough money to turn down IPL contracts - but the schedule is beginning to tell on players and KP situation will be first of many.

 

[puddleduck]

Worth pointing out that KP had a really good IPL recently and followed it with excellent form for England again. Something to be said for not causing certain players to get too jaded. He has always been a big game player for England, and a tour of NZ is hardly likely to inspire him into form ahead of the Ashes.

It's a tough one really. Perhaps there needs to be a new style of central contract that works more on a retainer and basic salary rather than all inclusive ownership of the player? If a player is in form, available, and better than other options, it seems somewhat strange to leave them out.

 

[MUFC1987]

Aaaaahhhhhhh!

Rehashing of the same argument does not mean that it suddenly has more relevance. The major thing that makes for a strong team, particularly in Test cricket, is team unity. That's what Australia had when Waugh was in charge and what England have had when they've chased down Australia and subsequently beat them in Australia. This sort of situation is putting that spirit at risk to please certain players. Like I said, players have their own choices to make. KP is not suddenly going to be poor and struggling for the rest of his life because he turns down an IPL contract, or turns down a central contract. If he doesn't want to play New Zealand then fine. But what's to stop all the other players coming up with reasons to do the same? Nothing. That's why friction is being caused in the squad at the moment.

I'd also argue that talent is in the County game, they just need to be given a chance. The argument that they're not going to be good enough to replace KP just hasn't got any weight if they never get given that opportunity. KP is not the only reason we have been successful. England ARE NOT a one man team, good performance in this Test or not. The ECB need to do what is right for the England team, which is pick players who are committed to Test match cricket all year round, not ones who only want to play when it suits them. A compromise is KP retiring from certain forms of the game, which he tried to do. That's fine. I do disagree with the ECB in that he should be allowed to retire from ODIs and not both T20s and ODIs, but that's a point for another day. If he wants to retire from a form of the game, then so be it. Good luck to him. Don't expect me, or more importantly Andy Flower to be happy watching England slog around on the cold wet mornings in May, while KP does what the hell he wants, with no thoughts for his team. Cricket is a team game, the team is more important that the player. That's really not a hard concept. Oh, and another country doing it is not a reason why we should follow suit. We've got to the top of the game by setting standards, not following others.

Now either come up with a new argument with some points, or stop posting the same argument over and over, because it's a waste of my time. And I think you all know who this post is aimed at.

 

[puddleduck]

If he chooses to get left out and the player coming in promptly scores big runs, then by all means continue to play the new guy, but if you bring someone in, they get a run of low scores and meanwhile KP is smashing 100's for whichever IPL team is hiring him, then it's a difficult position from which to stand firm. At some point, someone will have to back down and I suspect it may end up being the ECB... especially seeing as they're so good at backing down to the BCCI normally