King Cricket
International Coach
^ I couldn't decide whom to keep and whom to chop. All are so good.
Still, let's give it a try.
Still, let's give it a try.
10 Greatest Test Spin Bowlers of all time (Multple Selection Options Available)
- Thread starter robin2855
- Start date
All about Daniel Vettori
Here?s my take in response to your observation
Vettori has a good record against the best Test team in the world ?Australia and also against a quality opposition ? Sri Lanka.
Against Australia
Vettori has taken maximum wickets 57 (in terms of all oppositions he played against) out of his 293 against the best side of the world Australia
He has also a very good record against Australia with regards to 5w: 6 out of his total 18, 10w 1 out of total 3, Ave: 35.33 against his career average 33.54.
Against Sri lanka
He also has an impressive record against another quality opposition Sri lanka.
Vettori has taken wickets 41 out of his 293 test career wickets against a quality opposition ? Sri Lanka.
He has also a very good record against Sri Lanka with regards to for 5w: 3 out of his total 18, 10w 1 out of total 3, Ave: 21.46 against his career average 33.54
To have this kind of bowling performance against Sri Lanka who are good at playing Spinners and used to playing and practicing against a master of spin Bowling Murali is indeed commendable. Don?t you think so?
The only opposition he does not have an impressive record is South Africa
18 wickets with no 5W 0, 10W. But south Africa is not Australia
With the above findings to testify Vettori certainly deserves a place in the 10th place. Fair enough mate?
Also he is not finished yet. He is still Active and kicking.
When he retires he will have more feathers added to his cap and I won?t be surprised if at that time we have to upgrade his position amongst the 10 greatest spinners of all time
Hope this helps.
Cheers Mate!
Here?s my take in response to your observation
Vettori has a good record against the best Test team in the world ?Australia and also against a quality opposition ? Sri Lanka.
Against Australia
Vettori has taken maximum wickets 57 (in terms of all oppositions he played against) out of his 293 against the best side of the world Australia
He has also a very good record against Australia with regards to 5w: 6 out of his total 18, 10w 1 out of total 3, Ave: 35.33 against his career average 33.54.
Against Sri lanka
He also has an impressive record against another quality opposition Sri lanka.
Vettori has taken wickets 41 out of his 293 test career wickets against a quality opposition ? Sri Lanka.
He has also a very good record against Sri Lanka with regards to for 5w: 3 out of his total 18, 10w 1 out of total 3, Ave: 21.46 against his career average 33.54
To have this kind of bowling performance against Sri Lanka who are good at playing Spinners and used to playing and practicing against a master of spin Bowling Murali is indeed commendable. Don?t you think so?
The only opposition he does not have an impressive record is South Africa
18 wickets with no 5W 0, 10W. But south Africa is not Australia
With the above findings to testify Vettori certainly deserves a place in the 10th place. Fair enough mate?
Also he is not finished yet. He is still Active and kicking.
When he retires he will have more feathers added to his cap and I won?t be surprised if at that time we have to upgrade his position amongst the 10 greatest spinners of all time
Hope this helps.
Cheers Mate!
King Cricket
International Coach
^ So, are just those two teams in this world "good opponents"? What about the others? And a 35+ thing can never be called a "good" average. Then why shouldn't Murali Kartik and Monty Panesar be in the top 10? Also, check his avg against SA, against India, against England- I really don't understand your point here.
King Cricket added 5 Minutes and 7 Seconds later...
Come again? 100+ vs Pakistan, 69+ against South Africa, 54+ against India, 36+ against England, 35+ against Australia, and 30+ against even Zimbabwe!!!!!!! His avg is under 30 against just 3 teams. Really, if he can be the 10th best spinner of alltime, then I wonder who can be called the worst.
King Cricket added 5 Minutes and 7 Seconds later...
Come again? 100+ vs Pakistan, 69+ against South Africa, 54+ against India, 36+ against England, 35+ against Australia, and 30+ against even Zimbabwe!!!!!!! His avg is under 30 against just 3 teams. Really, if he can be the 10th best spinner of alltime, then I wonder who can be called the worst.
For Vettori to be as good as he is in limited over cricket he needs to have very good control. To gain this control he lost the ability to spin the ball big which he had when he was younger. Have a look at Vettori in the early 2000's, he used his hip really well. The reason he is so ineffective in test matches as he doesn't have that sharp turn anymore.
King Pietersen
ICC Board Member
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2006
- Location
- Manchester
A career average of 33, an average away from home of 38 and only dominating Bangladesh and Sri Lanka does not make him good enough for a Top 10 list, although by the time you get down to Vettori on your list he's actually about the 20th bowler 
Just pick 10 ffs.
Just pick 10 ffs.King Cricket
International Coach
Yeah, just pick 10 Robin. You've instead picked loads.
10 Greatest Test eleven without Qadir and Derek underwood?
You got most of it correct. But a 10 greatest eleven without Qadir and Derek underwood. That is an impossiblity!
I am sure if you do a little bit of researching you will have a different opinion amout them. Both of them were geniuses. They won't matches single handedly umpteen times without the fast bowlers doing anything worthwhile.
They were simply awesome.
robin2855 added 5 Minutes and 11 Seconds later...
Their is a reason for that. I explained briefly why I have done that.
I will give you a detail reason later in the evening. Their is two matches going on today . I don't want to miss the second one.
Time to switch to watching the games.
You got most of it correct. But a 10 greatest eleven without Qadir and Derek underwood. That is an impossiblity!
I am sure if you do a little bit of researching you will have a different opinion amout them. Both of them were geniuses. They won't matches single handedly umpteen times without the fast bowlers doing anything worthwhile.
They were simply awesome.
robin2855 added 5 Minutes and 11 Seconds later...
Their is a reason for that. I explained briefly why I have done that.
I will give you a detail reason later in the evening. Their is two matches going on today . I don't want to miss the second one.
Time to switch to watching the games.
King Cricket
International Coach
I have seen neither of them play. Nope, not any video either. Yeah, let me first do some Statsguru research.
coolz_hari
International Coach
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2008
- Location
- City of Destiny
Paul Adams played very few tests but i think he has that capability to be in the list. after all he is best spinner for sa
Precambrian
International Cricketer
I don't think mistakes like the ones I bolded will help anyone to make any sort of decisions. Also ever heard of Sonny Ramadhin, Alf Valentine, Harbhajan Singh (has better avg than Qadir), Iqbal Qasim (Outshone Qadir) etc etc?
South Africa?s Best Spin Bowlers in Cricket History - Hugh Tayfield, Paul Adams
South Africa has produced two genuine spinners in their test history.
First is Hugh Tayfield whom I have already included in one of my three best 10th choices.
Second one is Paul Adams.
Let's take a look at the Test Career records of these two.
Hugh Tayfield
Hugh Tayfield :Test Matches 37 (Wickets : 170, Ave : 25.91, SR :79.8, 5W: 14, 10W:2).
According to Wisden obituary Hugh Tayfield was one of the most successful bowlers ever produced by South Africa and one of the greatest off-spinners the game has seen.
In only 37 matches he took an amazing number of wickets 170 ? unbelievable with a impressive average 25.92.
He has taken more wickets per Test match (4.59) then either Jim Laker(4.19 ) or Lance Gibbs 3.91 . That in itself sums up his greatness.
Compared to spin magician Hugh Tayfield Paul Adams has a pretty bowling record as records below testify:
Paul Adams
Paul Adams :Test Matches 45 (Wickets : 134, Ave : 32.97., SR :66.0, 5W: 4, 10W:1)
This is the reason I have not included him amongst the best 10 spin bowlers of all time.
Hope this helps.
South Africa has produced two genuine spinners in their test history.
First is Hugh Tayfield whom I have already included in one of my three best 10th choices.
Second one is Paul Adams.
Let's take a look at the Test Career records of these two.
Hugh Tayfield
Hugh Tayfield :Test Matches 37 (Wickets : 170, Ave : 25.91, SR :79.8, 5W: 14, 10W:2).
According to Wisden obituary Hugh Tayfield was one of the most successful bowlers ever produced by South Africa and one of the greatest off-spinners the game has seen.
In only 37 matches he took an amazing number of wickets 170 ? unbelievable with a impressive average 25.92.
He has taken more wickets per Test match (4.59) then either Jim Laker(4.19 ) or Lance Gibbs 3.91 . That in itself sums up his greatness.
Compared to spin magician Hugh Tayfield Paul Adams has a pretty bowling record as records below testify:
Paul Adams
Paul Adams :Test Matches 45 (Wickets : 134, Ave : 32.97., SR :66.0, 5W: 4, 10W:1)
This is the reason I have not included him amongst the best 10 spin bowlers of all time.
Hope this helps.
Robborocksdad
School Cricketer
Quick explanation of Rhodes records in tests. He spent half his career as a part time back up bowler - he was setting a few records with that hobbs bloke opening the batting! The rest of the time he was opening the bowling with a nice soaky wet, shiney new ball, or bowling on the Aussie pitches which simply didnt turn for finger spinners. His numbers on the mats in india or S.A. would have been entertaining!! Conversley, Lakers numbers benifitted from the fact that Aussies couldnt play off spin - see above for reason!- and having the pitches doctored in his favour.
Ok my picks - no special order.
Rhodes
Bedi - A thing of beauty and a joy forever
OReilly
Warne
Quadir
Underwood
Gibbs
Laker
Kumble
Johnny Briggs, Who no one else has mentioned yet!!
Ok my picks - no special order.
Rhodes
Bedi - A thing of beauty and a joy forever
OReilly
Warne
Quadir
Underwood
Gibbs
Laker
Kumble
Johnny Briggs, Who no one else has mentioned yet!!
Clarification - Test Bowling Records- Abdul Qadir & Richie Benaud
There are minor discrepancies in test records of two bowlers (Ave, SR) as observed by a reader. They are Abdul Qadir and Richie Benaud.
Richie Benaud as originally posted
Richie Benaud Test Matches: 63 (wickets : 248, Ave : 77.0, SR : 46.7.1 5W: 16, 10W:1).
Richie Benaud corrected for Ave, SR. All other data is correct
Richie Benaud Test Matches: 63 (wickets : 248, Ave : 27.0, SR : 77.0, 5W: 16, 10W:1).
Abdul Qadir as originally posted:
Abdul Qadir Test Matches :67 (Wickets : 236, Ave : 26.16, SR 54.2, 5W: 15, 10W:5).
Abdul Qadir corrected for Ave, SR.All other data is correct.
Abdul Qadir Test Matches :67 (Wickets : 236, Ave : 32.8, SR 72.5, 5W: 15, 10W:5).
The statistics of every bowler is double checked before posted .
I also compare data from two best sources to make sure it is as accurate as possible. So the minor discrepancies which are mainly Ave and SR all other data are okay is a matter of concern to me. I do not know if their has been tampering of data.
Anyway I have not saved a copy of this particular one . So I cannot say whether it was an error on my part or their has been any sort of tampering.
It is also the first time that such an error though minor has occurred.
Moving forward I will keep a copy of posts that has statistical data.
robin2855 added 42 Minutes and 41 Seconds later...
It appears you have done quite a bit of homework as barring Rhodes you have a near perfect selection.Having said that I am still not convinced with Rhodes being considered amongst the 10 greatest spinners on a test record basis.
However having said you have added somebody which no one else talked about. I am talking about Johnny Briggs. Unbelievable Bowling record if we are to just consider statistics.
Johnny Briggs Test Matches :33 (Wickets : 118, Ave : 17.75, SR 45.1, 5W: 9, 10W:4).
That is phenomenal.
His inclusion does make your selection look formidable.
You deserve a big hand from everyone for unleashing this hidden phenomenon.
There are minor discrepancies in test records of two bowlers (Ave, SR) as observed by a reader. They are Abdul Qadir and Richie Benaud.
Richie Benaud as originally posted
Richie Benaud Test Matches: 63 (wickets : 248, Ave : 77.0, SR : 46.7.1 5W: 16, 10W:1).
Richie Benaud corrected for Ave, SR. All other data is correct
Richie Benaud Test Matches: 63 (wickets : 248, Ave : 27.0, SR : 77.0, 5W: 16, 10W:1).
Abdul Qadir as originally posted:
Abdul Qadir Test Matches :67 (Wickets : 236, Ave : 26.16, SR 54.2, 5W: 15, 10W:5).
Abdul Qadir corrected for Ave, SR.All other data is correct.
Abdul Qadir Test Matches :67 (Wickets : 236, Ave : 32.8, SR 72.5, 5W: 15, 10W:5).
The statistics of every bowler is double checked before posted .
I also compare data from two best sources to make sure it is as accurate as possible. So the minor discrepancies which are mainly Ave and SR all other data are okay is a matter of concern to me. I do not know if their has been tampering of data.
Anyway I have not saved a copy of this particular one . So I cannot say whether it was an error on my part or their has been any sort of tampering.
It is also the first time that such an error though minor has occurred.
Moving forward I will keep a copy of posts that has statistical data.
robin2855 added 42 Minutes and 41 Seconds later...
It appears you have done quite a bit of homework as barring Rhodes you have a near perfect selection.Having said that I am still not convinced with Rhodes being considered amongst the 10 greatest spinners on a test record basis.
However having said you have added somebody which no one else talked about. I am talking about Johnny Briggs. Unbelievable Bowling record if we are to just consider statistics.
Johnny Briggs Test Matches :33 (Wickets : 118, Ave : 17.75, SR 45.1, 5W: 9, 10W:4).
That is phenomenal.
His inclusion does make your selection look formidable.
You deserve a big hand from everyone for unleashing this hidden phenomenon.
:Qadir is a Genius. Pride of Pakistan, Asia and the World
Statistics is not the only yardstick to judge a player.
If that has been the case then Zaheer Abbas, Mohammad Yousuf just some cases in points would be amongst the greatest batsmen in the world or Kallis with his enviable all-Round records would stake his claim as a better All Rounder than Sobers. But Kallis is not Sobers . He cannot ever be Sobers or I doubt their will ever be a better All- Rounder born in this world who can be better than Sobers .
Bowlers like Qadir is born once in century . His astonishing skills of leg spin bowling and the variety of balls he had in his armory is legendary. His leg spin wizardry has bamboozled the best of batsman and singularly won games for Pakistan zillion times.
It will be an insult to compare him with others like Qasim, Harbhajan Alf Valentine or Sonny Ramadhin. That is not to say these bowlers are bad.They are all good or great by their country or Asian standard. But not good enough to be considered amongst the 10 greatest in the world.
If you are not convinced you can actually email to Spinning Superstars like the Spinning Quartet Of India, Richie Benaud, and the incomparable Shane Warne for their assessment of Qadir.
The answer will be one :Qadir is undoubtedly one of the best spinners to have played Test Cricket. Check it out mate.
With regards to your query if I have heard about Ramadhin and Valentine. What made you think I have not heard and not considered them ?(LOL!)
BTW for you and other readers as well so that you know I post this kind of posts after a lot of intensive research.
This particular one I have also seen invaluable footages of all top spinners to have played test and first class cricket from 1850 till now and also listened to expert comments as well of Superstars of yesteryears that include :
Godfrey Evans, Sir Len Hutton, Tom Graveny, Neil Harvey, Brian Close, Ray Lindwall, David Gower.Have you heard all the guys?(Lol!)
Time to watch the West Indies VS England Replay.
I have to go now.
Statistics is not the only yardstick to judge a player.
If that has been the case then Zaheer Abbas, Mohammad Yousuf just some cases in points would be amongst the greatest batsmen in the world or Kallis with his enviable all-Round records would stake his claim as a better All Rounder than Sobers. But Kallis is not Sobers . He cannot ever be Sobers or I doubt their will ever be a better All- Rounder born in this world who can be better than Sobers .
Bowlers like Qadir is born once in century . His astonishing skills of leg spin bowling and the variety of balls he had in his armory is legendary. His leg spin wizardry has bamboozled the best of batsman and singularly won games for Pakistan zillion times.
It will be an insult to compare him with others like Qasim, Harbhajan Alf Valentine or Sonny Ramadhin. That is not to say these bowlers are bad.They are all good or great by their country or Asian standard. But not good enough to be considered amongst the 10 greatest in the world.
If you are not convinced you can actually email to Spinning Superstars like the Spinning Quartet Of India, Richie Benaud, and the incomparable Shane Warne for their assessment of Qadir.
The answer will be one :Qadir is undoubtedly one of the best spinners to have played Test Cricket. Check it out mate.
With regards to your query if I have heard about Ramadhin and Valentine. What made you think I have not heard and not considered them ?(LOL!)
BTW for you and other readers as well so that you know I post this kind of posts after a lot of intensive research.
This particular one I have also seen invaluable footages of all top spinners to have played test and first class cricket from 1850 till now and also listened to expert comments as well of Superstars of yesteryears that include :
Godfrey Evans, Sir Len Hutton, Tom Graveny, Neil Harvey, Brian Close, Ray Lindwall, David Gower.Have you heard all the guys?(Lol!)
Time to watch the West Indies VS England Replay.
I have to go now.
