India in England Jun-Sept 2014

[asprin]

Its all about what the team does on the field....not how good it looks on paper

Well, it does matter to some extent. That's what forms the basis for all predictions/analysis of the series before even a ball is bowled.

and it all seems to have changed with 1 dropped catch.

I felt the same way too. What if Jadeja hadn't dropped that catch? What would Cook have gone through after another failure? What would have been the mood in the England's dressing room?

 

[PokerAce]

I see what you are saying, at least we have a win in this series, but the last 2 losses, that's a big step back compared to our performances in South Africa and New Zealand, in South Africa we should've won the game at Johannesburg and in New Zealand, at Auckland we were so very close to chasing down 400 odd and at Wellington we had 94-5 in the 2nd innings with a lead of 152 and we let them make 680, and in the process they batted us out of that game, so the performance as a whole, we were in positions where we could've won 3 of the 4 Tests.

This series has just been so weird and yet interesting, the India (and England) we saw up to the Lord's Test was the one I was banking on and it all seems to have changed with 1 dropped catch.

Yes India have been very close during the horror run to winning a few times. You say 1 catch changed the series and that is true, but remember it was also the case in Wellington. McCullum was dropped dirt cheap by Kohli casually going with one hand for his catch at Short Mid On. He then went on to score 300 ! A lot of our problems are due to poor catching. England had 4 catches at slips, all taken no fuss, 8/4. If they had dropped a few of those it would have been a different result. Sure the batting has hurt, but a case could be made for our catching having hurt us just as much if not more.[DOUBLEPOST=1407692234][/DOUBLEPOST]

That's the reason I said marginally better, and I made that comparison based on the form/morale/on and off field drama of the teams in question. Before the start of the series, India were definitely in a better frame of mind than England, especially with England having just lost to SL and the calls for sacking the captain getting louder.

Actually if you speak of morale, Ind can still give a huge dent to England if they win the last test. England have not won a test series for ages, and not being able to beat India would be a huge dent to them.

 

[Epic]

As far as the debate on captaincy is concerned, like I said before, there's no real point to changing captains in any format at this time, Dhoni should stay on as ODI captain whatever happens at the 2015 World Cup, unless he's retiring or doesn't want to captain anymore, 2017 Champions Trophy would be the best time for Dhoni to relinquish the ODI captaincy and maybe international cricket as a whole, gives the new ODI captain 2 years to get ready for the 2019 World Cup, which should be enough... Dhoni just last month turned 33 so he won't even be 34 when the World Cup comes around, from that point I'd say he still has 2 good years left in him.

Now the tour of Australia and the Tests, it's definitely our last away tour for sometime, I haven't checked the FTP, but the way BCCI have set up our scheduling, we basically play strings of away tours one after another with a home series with whoever's desperate for some TV money and is in a good relationship with the BCCI, that team seems to be the West Indies now, point being after the upcoming tour of Australia we won't see an away tour for another 2 or 3 years, especially not to South Africa, New Zealand, England and Australia, our historically tough away tours, so whether Dhoni wants to retire from Tests and in the process relinquish his captaincy or we sack him, it should be done after the tour of Australia, give whoever the new captain is a good couple of years of home Tests vs the very likes of South Africa, New Zealand, England and Australia to get his feet wet before we thrust him into the much tougher challenge of overseas Tests.

 

[PokerAce]

As far as the debate on captaincy is concerned, like I said before, there's no real point to changing captains in any format at this time, Dhoni should stay on as ODI captain whatever happens at the 2015 World Cup, unless he's retiring or doesn't want to captain anymore, 2017 Champions Trophy would be the best time for Dhoni to relinquish the ODI captaincy and maybe international cricket as a whole, gives the new ODI captain 2 years to get ready for the 2019 World Cup, which should be enough... Dhoni just last month turned 33 so he won't even be 34 when the World Cup comes around, from that point I'd say he still has 2 good years left in him.

Now the tour of Australia and the Tests, it's definitely our last away tour for sometime, I haven't checked the FTP, but the way BCCI have set up our scheduling, we basically play strings of away tours one after another with a home series with whoever's desperate for some TV money and is in a good relationship with the BCCI, that team seems to be the West Indies now, point being after the upcoming tour of Australia we won't see an away tour for another 2 or 3 years, especially not to South Africa, New Zealand, England and Australia, our historically tough away tours, so whether Dhoni wants to retire from Tests and in the process relinquish his captaincy or we sack him, it should be done after the tour of Australia, give whoever the new captain is a good couple of years of home Tests vs the very likes of South Africa, New Zealand, England and Australia to get his feet wet before we thrust him into the much tougher challenge of overseas Tests.

Actually in the FTP India are not scheduled to play any tests for a year after the Aus tour and that cannot be the case. I am sure tours will be scheduled in the interim, most like SA to tour India, which was to be the original SRT retirement series but got scrapped for various reasons and the WI series was put in place. India toured SA last and SA still have to return and I think that will be one series definitely slotted in the interim. Also recently India have played all test nations, except Pak and Ban and Zim. Pak tour to India is unlikely but a 2 test series against Zim or B'desh may happen in between Eng and Aus tours. It may seem like a cop out for an easy win, but well honestly those two are the only ones India haven't played in the past 2 years. I would hate another series against WI and SL we have played too much off late. Pak tour ain't happening and everyone else we have played within the past year. Toured NZ, SA, now ENG and Aus soon. WI at home and SL no one wants to play again. That leaves B'desh and Zim.

I am actually greatly looking forward to the ODI triseries in Aus, which will feature Aus Eng and Ind. Should be a cracker of a series.

 

[grkrama]

India in England 2014 : Wet Sunday mocks Indian capitulation | Cricket Features | England v India - Investec Test Series | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[PokerAce]

Okay I did Download the FTP full schedule and its kinda interesting to study.

After Eng tour there is a break for T20 Champs League in Sep. Then WI tour India for 3 tests, 5 ODIs, 1 T20 (Cricinfo is not showing this though). Wonder if this is the tour that was held early last year as the SRT retirement series. Then the Aus tour and the WC. Post WC a tour to B'desh () 2 tests (Also missing from Cricinfo, so maybe the WI series will happen after all). Then IPL, then as yet unannounced series followed by hosting SA and SL back to back 3 tests each. Then another tour to Aus only ODIs and then off to WI for 3 tests. All said and done, apart from the Aus tour, Ind will (should) win (atleast draw) all these series. Thats a good test run to look forward to. .

The run continues actually followed by WI, then Zim away (), then host NZ, Eng and Aus. India should win all these series' at the very least draw. A good run. India then go to SL, which will be tough, then off to SA.

The Aus away series will (should) be the last series India lose for a while. So its something to look forward to.[DOUBLEPOST=1407696549][/DOUBLEPOST]

India in England 2014 : Wet Sunday mocks Indian capitulation | Cricket Features | England v India - Investec Test Series | ESPN Cricinfo

Serves 'em right.

 

[PokerAce]

On a side note on the Captaincy issue, letting someone else take over the reigns in T20 (Kohli) won't be worst idea ever. After the WC of course. That is the starting point.

 

[War]

Yeah I remember in the 90s Indian cricket was run like a club, only friends allowed. England seem to have a core group too. Cook and Prior especially it has been said were close that led to Prior getting a long rope. There will always be difficult personalities, but what is important is not who your friend is, but who will win you the match. I am not aware of what happened with Compton or Carberry, but yeah KP situation is poorly handled. It would be madness if suddenly, India axed, Dravid cos he had a clash with Tendulkar. He didn't, but just an example, even if he did, it would be madness. With KP its even more baffling as KP was the highest run scorer in the Ashes in Aus. So its even more baffling what ECB is on about.

The KP issues is the tip of ice-berg, ECB hierarchy living in their own bubble, messing up ENG cricket & potentially world cricket by greedily joining BCCI in the greedy takeover . As George Dobell aptly highlights, much is wrong with the structures of English cricket that need changing which they have created - George Dobell: England jigsaw coming together | Cricket News | England v India - Investec Test Series | ESPN Cricinfo.

It is customary to only look for areas in which to improve in times of defeat. But if England really want to improve, if they want to make success the norm and not the exception, there are several areas in which they need to improve to give it the best chance of success. They are:

• The Championship needs to be trusted and valued. It has, once again, produced a side that has taken to Test cricket quickly. But if the ECB keeps diluting it with Lions games, young player incentives and the like, the production line could be jeopardised.
  
  
  
  
• The Championship schedule needs to be amended so that there are games throughout the season, not just at the start and end. This will provide more opportunities for spinners and test batsmen and bowlers in a variety of conditions. Domestic T20 could still be played on Friday nights; domestic List A cricket could still be played on Sundays. County squads need to be deep enough to play Championship cricket from Monday to Thursday.
  
  
  
  
• Groundsmen need to be encouraged and trusted to produce pitches that offer pace, bounce or spin at times. At present, with groundsmen facing judgement from assessors every day, they tend to play safe with slow, low surfaces which provide assistance to modest seamers and bear little comparison to international cricket.
  
  
  
  
• Unorthodoxy needs to be encouraged. What England still call "mystery" spin is a mystery no longer in most of the Test-playing world and, while a bowler like Lasith Malinga has proved good enough to win global events for Sri Lanka, such a young bowler emerging in England would probably still have the genius coached out of him.
  
  
  
  
• The new ball is currently due after 80 overs in Championship cricket. It may well encourage spinners and make seamers work a little harder, if that was pushed back to 90 or even 100 overs.
  
  
  
  
• The schedule of individual players needs to be monitored. While it may well be unrealistic to expect a significant cut in the international schedule - the game is dependent on a certain level of income - the current demands on the top players are unsustainable. Those of the squad required in all three formats are expected to spend around 300 days a years in hotels in 2015. There is no way they can be expected to be at their best for that period.
  
  
  
  
• In an attempt to encourage young, English-qualified players, the ECB lobbied for tougher work permit criteria for overseas, Kolpak registrations and the like in county cricket. Combined with the incentives brought in to encourage younger players, this has resulted in a dilution in the depth of quality of county cricket. That risks creating a larger gap between domestic and international cricket and may well need changing. As the example of Saeed Ajmal at Worcestershire shows us, there can be great value for England in the appearance of overseas players in county cricket.
  
  
  
  
• In the longer-term, the lack of cricket on free-to-air television represents a serious threat to the development of new talent in England. Already, England are uncomfortably reliant on players from the private school system or those brought up, in part at least, abroad. With so many other sports competing to capture the imagination of young people, it is essential cricket finds a way to appeal more widely. A domestic knockout T20 competition, perhaps incorporating the minor counties, might be one method to appeal to areas currently left untouched.

These wins are thus an example of winning despite those faults instead of a clear indication off the system directly helping.

Compton was left out because he wasn't seeing eye-to-eye with Flower & didn't conform to the norms of the "clique" atmosphere that was building up. Carberry too although he probably didn't see the world alight for the same reasons.

 

[Skater]

I had a great time up in Manchester for the first day of the 4th Test. Saw 13 wickets in a single day! This was my view:

 

[PokerAce]

The KP issues is the tip of ice-berg, ECB hierarchy living in their own bubble, messing up ENG cricket & potentially world cricket by greedily joining BCCI in the greedy takeover . As George Dobell aptly highlights, much is wrong with the structures of English cricket that need changing which they have created - George Dobell: England jigsaw coming together | Cricket News | England v India - Investec Test Series | ESPN Cricinfo.




These wins are thus an example of winning despite those faults instead of a clear indication off the system directly helping.

Compton was left out because he wasn't seeing eye-to-eye with Flower & didn't conform to the norms of the "clique" atmosphere that was building up. Carberry too although he probably didn't see the world alight for the same reasons.

The points he makes actually are not that big an issue. Atleast to me they are not. India for instance have never had domestic cricket boardcast on TV till a few years ago but the number of cricketers coming through is still good. I do think England should prepare more turners, just as India need to start producing faster and bouncier pitches at the domestic level. New ball ten overs later is not really that big a deal.

I do agree that a clique atmosphere is an issue. Andy Flower seemed to have made himself a central figure, bigger than the captain and that cannot be. They could consider hiring a spinner from Asia as a coach to help with the spinner issues. I know Moenn Ali has taken wickets but calling him a spinner is still pushing it. The attitude of the Indian Batsman was such that a monkey bowling spin would have picked up a few as well. No use of the feet, standing with the back foot cast in cement, in the crease and planting their front foot thud down the wicket, lunging at the ball, is a suicidal way to play the ball turning from the rough.

 

[Deleted member 9102]

I had a great time up in Manchester for the first day of the 4th Test. Saw 13 wickets in a single day! This was my view:
View attachment 128986

Great stuff, I'd love to go watch a day of a test match .

Thankfully your tickets weren't for day two, that would have sucked!

 

[barmyarmy]

Good KP interview with Peter Miller here. Worth reading.

 

[namin96]

The Indian performance was absolutely embarrasing. Looks like it's classic India o NC again, win one match and then lose the next 10-20! My faith in Virat Kohli has decreased simply because he doesn't have the patience and attitude to learn what he's doing wrong. He's getting out in the same way and keeps giving England slip catching practice. Virat is probably ecstatic that the match ended two days earlier so that he can spend more time with Anushka. I don't think he really cares about the team and he's acting careless now that he knows his place in the team is permanent. Dhoni said it's a lean patch every player goes through, but eight innings seems like too many chances. Kohli's footwork is absolutely bad he doesn't even get the front foot out to Anderson and just pokes at foolish balls. If you can't make runs in swinging conditions, I don't know how people can compare you to tendulkar. Why not have Anushka come out with you when you come to bat!

 

[Skater]

The Indian performance was absolutely embarrasing. Looks like it's classic India o NC again, win one match and then lose the next 10-20! My faith in Virat Kohli has decreased simply because he doesn't have the patience and attitude to learn what he's doing wrong. He's getting out in the same way and keeps giving England slip catching practice. Virat is probably ecstatic that the match ended two days earlier so that he can spend more time with Anushka. I don't think he really cares about the team and he's acting careless now that he knows his place in the team is permanent. Dhoni said it's a lean patch every player goes through, but eight innings seems like too many chances. Kohli's footwork is absolutely bad he doesn't even get the front foot out to Anderson and just pokes at foolish balls. If you can't make runs in swinging conditions, I don't know how people can compare you to tendulkar. Why not have Anushka come out with you when you come to bat!

Kohli keeps getting out to Anderson, so maybe the comparisons with Tendulkar are correct - Anderson had Sachin in his pocket too.

 

[abhi_jacko]

The Indian performance was absolutely embarrasing. Looks like it's classic India o NC again, win one match and then lose the next 10-20! My faith in Virat Kohli has decreased simply because he doesn't have the patience and attitude to learn what he's doing wrong. He's getting out in the same way and keeps giving England slip catching practice. Virat is probably ecstatic that the match ended two days earlier so that he can spend more time with Anushka. I don't think he really cares about the team and he's acting careless now that he knows his place in the team is permanent. Dhoni said it's a lean patch every player goes through, but eight innings seems like too many chances. Kohli's footwork is absolutely bad he doesn't even get the front foot out to Anderson and just pokes at foolish balls. If you can't make runs in swinging conditions, I don't know how people can compare you to tendulkar. Why not have Anushka come out with you when you come to bat!

Its fair to criticize his technique and what he is doing wrong. But I find it pathetic that you have to bring in his personal life into this. My 2 cents.