India in England Jun-Sept 2014

[grkrama]

You could say it is early in his career, but that would be the most obvious thing to say for Kohli fans.

im not an ardent kohli fan, but i think its too early to criticize him as it was too early to call him a legend. For all we know he is going rip the eng attack apart in the next test, if not the next tour that's for sure he is one who looks very committed to his batting and wouldn't want this blemish for long.

4 of anderson's dismissals came after sach was past his best in 2011 and 2012.Truth is jimmy never met full force sachin mostly, as he wasnt playing much between 2003-2007.
and that youtube clip of an odi should show what would have happened if he had.

 

[namin96]

Its lame bringing his GF into this. Its not like he is saying, now that he is sleeping with Anushka, he neednt score runs. The trouble with fans like you is that there is no room for a player to have a poor run, without dragging his personal life into the picture. This is the first time since he has started playing that he is having a poor run. So in tests overseas, he averages, 37 in Aus (not bad), 71 in NZ and 68 in SA. Those are great numbers outside the subcontinent. FIRST bad series in four years and suddenly he cannot play cricket, and his GF is the reason !! Its laughable to be honest.

Yes I understand your point of view on this topic. He has done incredible things up to this point. Eight innings though without any good performance in England, what is he doing in the nets?? Is he even trying to learn cause every time Anderson has got him in this series he has been caught in the slips, Virat needs to freaking analyze his dismissals! I have never seen Tendulkar get caught in the slips repeatedly in a series. This is absolutely terrible. I will be honest, I am a fan of Virat and it's frustrating to see him getting out in the same way when he is clearly capable of whacking Anderson around the park. Tendulkar would have wrecked the English on this Manchester pitch, he enjoys these pitches. It would have been entertaining to watch him on that Manchester pitch!

 

[namin96]

Its fair to criticize his technique and what he is doing wrong. But I find it pathetic that you have to bring in his personal life into this. My 2 cents.

Well I agree with you, it is pathetic to bring his personal life into this but the way he keeps getting out tells me that he is not willing to learn and adjust. I have seen no technical adjustments from him in these four matches whatsoever. What is he doing in between matches???

 

[War]

Tendulkar averages 51.73 in all tests against England, and if you take only tests in England that average goes upto 54.31 !! So I don't know about what you wrote, but based on this figure there is no dispute about the fact that Tendulkar sure had the whole of English bowling in his pocket !!

Also as much as the English fans love to gloat about Anderson and Broad the truth is they are great when the conditions and pitch are tailor made for them but rather ineffective when its not. Both have test bowling avg touching 30, thats proof of that. All the true world class bowlers, average much closer to 20 at the very least 25. Murali 22, Warne 25, Walsh 25, Hadlee 22, Pollock 23, Wasim 23, Ambrose 20, Steyn, 22, Waqar 23, Imran 22, Lille 23, Donald 22 to give some world class examples.




Sure Anderson and Broad may get some wickets in tough conditions from time to time, but, for the most part, an avg of 30 suggests they need tailor made conditions to perform. They are Green Pitch Bully Bowlers for the most part.

Well from my ENG fan perspective i don't gloat about Anderson/Broad. Since starting watching cricket during the 96 world cup - I would put Gough/Caddick as a new-ball pair above them. While a a fit Flintoff/Jones (the lost ENG great quick) were certainly more lethal IMO.

However i'd say up until Anderson recent dip in form which started during the back end of Ashes in England 2013, up until his revival in the last 2 tests - Anderson between the Brisbane test 2010 to Trent Bridge test 2013, had proven he was an all-conditions bowler.

In non seaming/overcast overseas condition when ENG won in AUS/IND especially he was excellent, mastering reverse swing etc. Also got 5 wicket hauls in UAE & SRI. Of course though he will never be ranked among the all-time great bowler historically or for ENG - just good to very good. This group is a closed shop for Trueman, Larwood, Snow, Botham, Statham, Tyson.

Tendulkar's record in ENG i've always found interesting, just like Brian Lara. If we are being honest, especially during the 90s neither of them ever faced a good English attack in English conditions. Gough/Caddick were absent a lot due to injuries, poor selection.

The 1st very good ENG attack Tendy faced in ENG was 2011 & he struggled although he was passed his best by then. In 2007 - the famous quartet that won the Ashes was already disbanded for various reasons. In 2002 the Gough/Caddick/Cork/White that won vs WI 1st time in 31 years in 2000 & won in PAK/SRI famously was also disbanded or past their best.

So theoretically Tendy at his best never really faced a peak ENG attack in ENG conditions. But i'm saying saying he couldn't since he got hundreds in AUS/SA vs their quicks in their own backyards at their best.

 

[namin96]

im not an ardent kohli fan, but i think its too early to criticize him as it was too early to call him a legend. For all we know he is going rip the eng attack apart in the next test, if not the next tour that's for sure he is one who looks very committed to his batting and wouldn't want this blemish for long.

4 of anderson's dismissals came after sach was past his best in 2011 and 2012.Truth is jimmy never met full force sachin mostly, as he wasnt playing much between 2003-2007.

I don't know if he's going to rip the English attack apart, I think the bookies have money on him going home without a 100 or 50.

 

[PokerAce]

Yeah but Tendulkar could actually play against Anderson too, Anderson didn't really get the better of him every single time. Tendulkar unlike Kohli could play against Anderson. Kohli hasn't shown anything positive against Anderson so far. You could say it is early in his career, but that would be the most obvious thing to say for Kohli fans.

Early or Late doesn't matter, the wickets and runs still count. One could even make the case that Anderson got Tendulkar when he was n his last tour to ENg aged 40, but that takes nothing away from anything. SRT was batting and scoring and Anderson still had to get him. Early or later is irrelevant here. Kohli has struggled, there is a clear flaw almost all the caught behinds have come with Kohli trying to defend balls on 5th stump or beyond. He needs to leave more, and has to work on that.

 

[grkrama]

One could even make the case that Anderson got Tendulkar when he was n his last tour to ENg aged 40, but that takes nothing away from anything. SRT was batting and scoring and Anderson still had to get him

when 4 out of the nine comes in that period that too with 2 fifties i think in them despite of it and still the fans of that bowler go boasting "In.his.pocket then" i do think it matters right .

 

[PokerAce]

Well from my ENG fan perspective i don't gloat about Anderson/Broad. Since starting watching cricket during the 96 world cup - I would put Gough/Caddick as a new-ball pair above them. While a a fit Flintoff/Jones (the lost ENG great quick) were certainly more lethal IMO.

However i'd say up until Anderson recent dip in form which started during the back end of Ashes in England 2013, up until his revival in the last 2 tests - Anderson between the Brisbane test 2010 to Trent Bridge test 2013, had proven he was an all-conditions bowler.

In non seaming/overcast overseas condition when ENG won in AUS/IND especially he was excellent, mastering reverse swing etc. Also got 5 wicket hauls in UAE & SRI. Of course though he will never be ranked among the all-time great bowler historically or for ENG - just good to very good. This group is a closed shop for Trueman, Larwood, Snow, Botham, Statham, Tyson.

Tendulkar's record in ENG i've always found interesting, just like Brian Lara. If we are being honest, especially during the 90s neither of them ever faced a good English attack in English conditions. Gough/Caddick were absent a lot due to injuries, poor selection.

The 1st very good ENG attack Tendy faced in ENG was 2011 & he struggled although he was passed his best by then. In 2007 - the famous quartet that won the Ashes was already disbanded for various reasons. In 2002 the Gough/Caddick/Cork/White that won vs WI 1st time in 31 years in 2000 & won in PAK/SRI famously was also disbanded or past their best.

So theoretically Tendy at his best never really faced a peak ENG attack in ENG conditions. But i'm saying saying he couldn't since he got hundreds in AUS/SA vs their quicks in their own backyards at their best.

Look all I am saying is that for World Class bowlers an avg touching 30 is not cutting it. It shows they are not performing in some kind of wickets or pitches. Take a look at Kumble he is the third wicket taker ever in test, but doesn't get his due because he has an average of 29 or 30. That is not a world class bowler, and shows he was effective in patches (sub continent where conditions were tailor made for him), and not elsewhere. Anderson and Braod also average 30 and so the point is that tey are also performing (or the numbers seem to say) in tailor made conditions. That average has to come down for them. Look at Steyn, 22 ... and just won SA a series in SL. Thats the point I am making.

 

[namin96]

Early or Late doesn't matter, the wickets and runs still count. One could even make the case that Anderson got Tendulkar when he was n his last tour to ENg aged 40, but that takes nothing away from anything. SRT was batting and scoring and Anderson still had to get him. Early or later is irrelevant here. Kohli has struggled, there is a clear flaw almost all the caught behinds have come with Kohli trying to defend balls on 5th stump or beyond. He needs to leave more, and has to work on that.

I realize that Kohli has a clear flaw. That was not my point at all.

 

[PokerAce]

when 4 out of the nine comes in that period that too with 2 fifties i think in them despite of it and still the fans of that bowler go boasting "In.his.pocket then" i do think it matters right .

I agree but the In His Pocket argument falls flat on so many levels before this point already, that this argument is not required.

 

[PokerAce]

I realize that Kohli has a clear flaw. That was not my point at all.

That is your point, its not about that fact the Kohli is on his first tour at all. To say Kohli is on his first tour and later on it will take care of itself is wrong. Its about the fact that he has a flaw and needs to sort, out or will struggle tour after tour.

 

[War]

Look all I am saying is that for World Class bowlers an avg touching 30 is not cutting it. It shows they are not performing in some kind of wickets or pitches. Take a look at Kumble he is the third wicket taker ever in test, but doesn't get his due because he has an average of 29 or 30. That is not a world class bowler, and shows he was effective in patches (sub continent where conditions were tailor made for him), and not elsewhere. Anderson and Braod also average 30 and so the point is that tey are also performing (or the numbers seem to say) in tailor made conditions. That average has to come down for them. Look at Steyn, 22 ... and just won SA a series in SL. Thats the point I am making.

Ye i agree Anderson is not WC. Just stating I am not one ENG fan that over-exaggerates how good he is.

 

[PokerAce]

Ye i agree Anderson is not WC. Just stating I am not one ENG fan that over-exaggerates how good he is.

Yup, though of course when things are in his favor he is the last person you want to be facing. Also a big fan of that ball of his that angles in and seams away, unplayable and when the conditions are right he can bowl that at will. Remember in the 2011 tour, he got Dravid bolwed to one such ball, super.

 

[PokerAce]

Yes I understand your point of view on this topic. He has done incredible things up to this point. Eight innings though without any good performance in England, what is he doing in the nets?? Is he even trying to learn cause every time Anderson has got him in this series he has been caught in the slips, Virat needs to freaking analyze his dismissals! I have never seen Tendulkar get caught in the slips repeatedly in a series. This is absolutely terrible. I will be honest, I am a fan of Virat and it's frustrating to see him getting out in the same way when he is clearly capable of whacking Anderson around the park. Tendulkar would have wrecked the English on this Manchester pitch, he enjoys these pitches. It would have been entertaining to watch him on that Manchester pitch!

Look the SRT point is done. What he would, would not have done is finished. There will never be another SRT, to carry the Indian team for 20 years. Also there have been enough vids of him seen Practicising leaving the ball ... but as Dhoni said, when you have been playing cricket for 15 years you develop your own set of basics, and practise all you want in the nets, once the pressue increases in the middle, you immediately go back to your basics. Those basics are not undone over night.

Also I remember plently of Series where Tendulkar got caught in the slips regularly. I remember I think in '94 or there about WI toured India where Tendulkar kept edging to 2nd and 3rd slips. He got over it eventually, then there is the legendary No Cover Drive Innings of 241 n.o.

Kohli is no SRT, but still Kohli is in a league of his own. This is his first real struggle since he started playing, so be patient with him. In the name of correcting /improving Kohli, we dont want him to end up as another Irfan Pathan.

 

[Satan666]

Yeah but Tendulkar could actually play against Anderson too, Anderson didn't really get the better of him every single time. Tendulkar unlike Kohli could play against Anderson. Kohli hasn't shown anything positive against Anderson so far. You could say it is early in his career, but that would be the most obvious thing to say for Kohli fans.

To start with Kohli is already a better batsman than Tendulkar, the guy was overrated!

Anderson owned Tendulkar like McGrath owned Lara, simple as that.

Anderson and Broad are the best pair of fast bowlers opening at present, yes I rate them higher than Steyn/Morkel or Steyn/Philander.

Anderson and Broad can make it easily in the top 5 fast bowlers at present, to think otherwise is foolish.