India in England Jun-Sept 2014

India look to end 24-year wait | Cricket News | England v India | ESPN Cricinfo

So despite popular belief India have not 'done it all' as some may tend to think. I dont see them winning this series neither. England 4-1!

India have won the Natwest series in 2002. Much more importantly Ind won the CT last year in England. So yes in competitions that mean something, India have actually 'done it all'.

Name one ICC event Ind have not won. Or name any ICC event that India have not won under MSD. Also how many ICC events can u name that Eng have won.

As much as I really really want India to win this ODI series, I do also at the same time understand that the series itself is a pointless one. Forgotten in 2 months and of many similar series that take place all the time. Its not a series that matters, except in the immediate short run.
 
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we did win natwest trophy in 2002 it was a tri series with SL too, but all the better you know for an extra team, and to chase 326 in final at lords against the then eng and winning thats something

Ok. India still havent won A BILATERAL ODI SERIES IN ENGLAND FOR THE LAST 24 YEARS.
 
India have won the Natwest series in 2002. Much more importantly Ind won the CT last year in England. So yes in competitions that mean something, India have actually 'done it all'.

Name one ICC event Ind have not won. Or name any ICC event that India have not won under MSD. Also how many ICC events can u name that Eng have won.

As much as I really really want India to win this ODI series, I do also at the same time understand that the series itself is a pointless one. Forgotten in 2 months and of many similar series that take place all the time. Its not a series that matters, except in the immediate short run.

India have not won against England in England in an ODI series under MSD.

Agreed, the series is worthless as is ODI overall.
 
India have not won against England in England in an ODI series under MSD.

Agreed, the series is worthless as is ODI overall.

Is the series against England in England in an ODI series under MSD an ICC event. Since you didn't understand what an ICC event means, In common parlance ICC events refer to multi-nation events and not bilateral ones.

So again. Name any ICC event India have not won under MSD. Everthing worth winning India have won under MSD.

Again I do really want India to win, but for nothing more than immediate short term morale of the team, and also because any series it is better to win than to lose.

However, if Ind lose, the history of the run being streched to more than 20 years or whatever you said it was, will not even be a reason to get worried. The immediate form and morale would definitely a reason to get worried.
 
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This series is going to be worthwhile for India to prepare for the World Cup. Any series outside the subcontinent will help in our World Cup preparations.

Also this argument of "XYZ series will forgotten in 2 years time" is just overused and that too unfairly at most times. Unless its an ICC tournament (and that too hopefully not a failure of a tournament), most series are forgotten by people as they move on to the next series/tournament, etc. This applies to even test series. Memorable series like the Ashes 2005, India vs Australia 2001 are all once in a blue moon. We cannot predict which series will be memorable and will be remembered way into the future. That doesn't mean we stop playing certain types of series.
 
This series is going to be worthwhile for India to prepare for the World Cup. Any series outside the subcontinent will help in our World Cup preparations.

Also this argument of "XYZ series will forgotten in 2 years time" is just overused and that too unfairly at most times. Unless its an ICC tournament (and that too hopefully not a failure of a tournament), most series are forgotten by people as they move on to the next series/tournament, etc. This applies to even test series. Memorable series like the Ashes 2005, India vs Australia 2001 are all once in a blue moon. We cannot predict which series will be memorable and will be remembered way into the future. That doesn't mean we stop playing certain types of series.

I think ALL bilateral ODI series are forgotten. I struggle to recall any ODI series, and I am sure there mist have been quite a few memorable ones. ODI tournaments, even three nations one, we usually retain some memory of. Test series are usually not forgotten, unless they are B'desh or Zim. I am sure we can all recall so many memorable Test Series over the years, not a single ODI series. Especially all of India's overseas series in the past 20 years we all remember, something from each series, at least the final series score and outcome. Nothing from Bilateral ODI series though, or if at all some memories then very very vague ones from some odd match were an extraordinary performance happened, still no idea what the score was in the series.
 
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England v India, 1st ODI, Bristol : Duncan Fletcher is still the boss - MS Dhoni | Cricket News | England v India | ESPN Cricinfo

Dhoni says Fletcher will definitely lead India into the WC. Puts all speculation to rest in a way. Also to be honest the doom and gloom should be gone post the WI series like how Cook suddenly seems he can do no wrong after beating the worst travellers in test cricket. Assuming India do well of course, which Ind should really.

Its also important to beat WI because an Ind side traditionally poor overseas on a high in Aus, is better than an Ind side traditionally poor overseas low on morale in Aus.

Having said that, its seems the BCCI has given the team a free run till the world cup to just play without pressure, no sword hanging over anyone's head.

The worst scenario is when there is confusion about what ppl are thinking or confusion over the future of the coach and skipper. So atleast there is no state of confusion and that is a positive.
 
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Is the series against England in England in an ODI series under MSD an ICC event. Since you didn't understand what an ICC event means, In common parlance ICC events refer to multi-nation events and not bilateral ones.

So again. Name any ICC event India have not won under MSD. Everthing worth winning India have won under MSD.

Again I do really want India to win, but for nothing more than immediate short term morale of the team, and also because any series it is better to win than to lose.

However, if Ind lose, the history of the run being streched to more than 20 years or whatever you said it was, will not even be a reason to get worried. The immediate form and morale would definitely a reason to get worried.

Oh! You mean an ICC tournament, cuz technically the series at present is played under ICC rules, umpires, regulation, referees and so on. Essentially an ICC event but thats my understanding you ICC inclined guys would know better of course!

Again India have not won an ODI series in India for the last 24 years. As quoted also they've only won one bilateral series in India overall.

Stats like these can be used to give us an idea of the possible outcome of the series starting later on, hence England gonna take it 4-1!!!!!
 
England v India, 1st ODI, Bristol : Duncan Fletcher is still the boss - MS Dhoni | Cricket News | England v India | ESPN Cricinfo

Dhoni says Fletcher will definitely lead India into the WC. Puts all speculation to rest in a way. Also to be honest the doom and gloom should be gone post the WI series like how Cook suddenly seems he can do no wrong after beating the worst travellers in test cricket. Assuming India do well of course, which Ind should really.

Its also important to beat WI because an Ind side traditionally poor overseas on a high in Aus, is better than an Ind side traditionally poor overseas low on morale in Aus.

Having said that, its seems the BCCI has given the team a free run till the world cup to just play without pressure, no sword hanging over anyone's head.

The worst scenario is when there is confusion about what ppl are thinking or confusion over the future of the coach and skipper. So atleast there is no state of confusion and that is a positive.

To me, if the Director of Cricket (the role which Shastri is doing right now) continues till the World Cup, I dont give a damn if Fletcher stays till the World Cup or he leaves. Also, Dhoni seems to be talking as if he is not happy with Penney and Dawes being sent back and the new replacements coming in. So that gives a hint that Dhoni does not have as big a say in BCCI matters as people thought to be. So frankly, him telling us that Fletcher will continue till the World Cup should not be taken seriously (also how Dhoni can talk about Fletcher's future when he has no say in it, baffles me).
 
Oh! You mean an ICC tournament, cuz technically the series at present is played under ICC rules, umpires, regulation, referees and so on. Essentially an ICC event but thats my understanding you ICC inclined guys would know better of course!

Again India have not won an ODI series in India for the last 24 years. As quoted also they've only won one bilateral series in India overall.

Stats like these can be used to give us an idea of the possible outcome of the series starting later on, hence England gonna take it 4-1!!!!!

Since you don't fully understand what an ICC event is ... let me explain.

Bilateral tournaments are not ICC Events..

Outside of the FTP, teams can bilaterally arrange any series, which thus makes it a non ICC event. Like for instance last year WI toured India for a two test series which was not part of ICC FTP but a mutually agreed series between ICC and WICB. Such series take place all the time so not every Bilateral series is part of the ICC calender. Even if a series is part of FTP, even so the rules of this series with regard to some things are subject to mutually agreed rules between those nations. For instance whether floodlights can be used or not. Or whether DRS can be used or not.

Also even in non-India involving sereis, just because teams may agree to use DRS, doesnt alter the fact that if they wanted could have chosen to not use DRS. This option is definitely there, with all boards. Thus in bilateral series the respective boards have a lot of control. For ages ODI series in Sharjah were organized, based on the mutual consent of the boards. India and Pakistan have played bilateral Series in Canada, based on mutual consent. ICC does provide a skeleton for the FTP, but those are all subject to all kinds of change depending on the boards in questions and they can if they so choose not even go ahead with the series ICC has arranged as part of FTP. For instance, so many Ind-Pak bilateral series over the years have not gone ahead. Also, ICC doesn't organise these events, and final say rests with the boards. What the venues will be, what kind of pitches, etc is for the host board to decide, and not the ICC. ICC may occasionally step in, if a pitch is poor but short of that ICC has no role.

So any Bilateral series test or ODIs, whether part of FTP or not, is thus organised by the hosting board and not the ICC, and thus is not an ICC event.

The ICC only organises the Muti-Nation events, like the World cup or Champions Trophy or World T20, and these are today the ONLY ICC Events. Sure the ICC organises many events for the non test playing nations, but these three are the only ones that involve test playing nations. Also since ICC only organises these giant events, involving all the major teams, it is a matter of prestige to win these events. Hence ICC Events are at a level much higher than any bilateral series.

In ICC events, for starters ICC's name and logo is attached to the event. So its always the ICC World Cup or ICC CT. In all bilateral series ICC's name is missing. In ICC events the ICC actively enforces the rules which are common for all teams. No particular board has the option to change the rules, which is why in a World Cup DRS will always be there even in Ind matches, same in CT. Two teams in a day match cannot mutually decide to use or not use floodlights, when faced with fading lights. Also unlike mutual series two boards cannot just agree to scrap the World Cup. So even though at numerous times BCCI and PCB have scrapped bilateral tours, even in the most heated of times they have always faced each other in ICC events. For instance even when Ind Pak were in the middle of Kargil war in '99 and all bilateral cricketing exchanges between Ind and Pak had been scrapped, they still faced each other in the Super Six stage of the '99 WC.

There are tonnes of other differences, like for instance ICC chooses the host, which is missing in bilateral series. Two boards can mutually decide a series and who will tour who. In a bilateral series if the boards agree the series can be played in another nation entirely. Ind Pak like I said have played bilateral series in Canada in the past. Pak plays all its matches in Dubai, because the teams no longer visit and Dubai is the mutually agreed venue by the boards, and ICC has very limited role here. In bilateral series there are no restriction on squad sizes. Ind came to Eng with 18 players other teams tour with 15. The host nation constantly chops and changes their squad through the series, like Jordan and Woakes, being brought into the series mid way by Eng, or last year in Ind Dhawan being brought into the side aginst Australia.

In ICC events all sides have the same number of players, submitted before the event to the ICC, and only those players play. Thus ICC exercises direct control over the squad sizes which is missing in bilateral events. The host side too must submit a squad at the start and cannot chop and change it in the middle of a tournament. So suddenly the host board cannot announce a new squad for their SF clash in an ICC event and recall a player who was injured so far.

Now I hope the difference between an ICC event and a bilateral event is clear to you.

Also with regard to, India's ODI history in Eng, why are you trying to ignore that India have won the Natwest series in 2002 beating England in the final and the much more prestigious CT, last year also beating Eng in the finals. So whether Ind have actually won a bilateral series in Eng or not is way secondary to the fact the Ind did win CT in Eng. No one is losing sleep over the fact that Ind have not won a bilateral series in Eng. They have won plenty of much more important trophies in Eng than some bilateral series - WC '83, and CT last year for instance. Which brings me back to the question what have Eng ever won.

I still really want Ind to win, but even if they don't India's legacy of winning major tournaments in England is far too tall to be affected by this bilateral series. Its taller than even England's. What mutlinational major event have England ever won in Eng?

As for the 4-1 scoreline, for starters, tomorrow's match is in all likelihood going to be washed out, so that alone takes care of that prediction. :) Your point though is well taken, India are not the favs to win. However that is because they are not in form and absolutely nothing to do with the fact that India are not likely to win because this is a bilateral series and Ind have a poor history. That is a wrong way of looking at it.

History has nothing to do with anything. Ind are not in form and hence not favs. Whether it was a bilateral series or a triangular series, Ind would not be favs to win.
 
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To me, if the Director of Cricket (the role which Shastri is doing right now) continues till the World Cup, I dont give a damn if Fletcher stays till the World Cup or he leaves. Also, Dhoni seems to be talking as if he is not happy with Penney and Dawes being sent back and the new replacements coming in. So that gives a hint that Dhoni does not have as big a say in BCCI matters as people thought to be. So frankly, him telling us that Fletcher will continue till the World Cup should not be taken seriously (also how Dhoni can talk about Fletcher's future when he has no say in it, baffles me).


Ind Captains have always had a say in the appointment of coaches. Ganguly for instance was pivotal in getting Greg the coach's job, something even Greg has acknowledged in his autobiography. Also lets not fool ourselves, just because two coaches being changed makes MSD unhappy, doesn't mean he has no say in the backdoor matters.

Having said, that MSD could still just be trying to make the right noises as they say. Having said that, I would actually prefer BCCI to make up their mind. No point in a sword hanging over anyone. Either sack Fletcher or back him till the World Cup.

Confusion over a coach or captain's future is even worse than a team out of form. So if BCCI has backed Fletcher till the world cup and what MSD is saying is true, then that is preferrable to Fletcher and MSD going to Aus with confusion over their futures.
 
Since you don't fully understand what an ICC event is ... let me explain.

Bilateral tournaments are not ICC Events..

Outside of the FTP, teams can bilaterally arrange any series, which thus makes it a non ICC event. Like for instance last year WI toured India for a two test series which was not part of ICC FTP but a mutually agreed series between ICC and WICB. Such series take place all the time so not every Bilateral series is part of the ICC calender. Even if a series is part of FTP, even so the rules of this series with regard to some things are subject to mutually agreed rules between those nations. For instance whether floodlights can be used or not. Or whether DRS can be used or not.

Also even in non-India involving sereis, just because teams may agree to use DRS, doesnt alter the fact that if they wanted could have chosen to not use DRS. This option is definitely there, with all boards. Thus in bilateral series the respective boards have a lot of control. For ages ODI series in Sharjah were organized, based on the mutual consent of the boards. India and Pakistan have played bilateral Series in Canada, based on mutual consent. ICC does provide a skeleton for the FTP, but those are all subject to all kinds of change depending on the boards in questions and they can if they so choose not even go ahead with the series ICC has arranged as part of FTP. For instance, so many Ind-Pak bilateral series over the years have not gone ahead. Also, ICC doesn't organise these events, and final say rests with the boards. What the venues will be, what kind of pitches, etc is for the host board to decide, and not the ICC. ICC may occasionally step in, if a pitch is poor but short of that ICC has no role.

So any Bilateral series test or ODIs, whether part of FTP or not, is thus organised by the hosting board and not the ICC, and thus is not an ICC event.

The ICC only organises the Muti-Nation events, like the World cup or Champions Trophy or World T20, and these are today the ONLY ICC Events. Sure the ICC organises many events for the non test playing nations, but these three are the only ones that involve test playing nations. Also since ICC only organises these giant events, involving all the major teams, it is a matter of prestige to win these events. Hence ICC Events are at a level much higher than any bilateral series.

In ICC events, for starters ICC's name and logo is attached to the event. So its always the ICC World Cup or ICC CT. In all bilateral series ICC's name is missing. In ICC events the ICC actively enforces the rules which are common for all teams. No particular board has the option to change the rules, which is why in a World Cup DRS will always be there even in Ind matches, same in CT. Two teams in a day match cannot mutually decide to use or not use floodlights, when faced with fading lights. Also unlike mutual series two boards cannot just agree to scrap the World Cup. So even though at numerous times BCCI and PCB have scrapped bilateral tours, even in the most heated of times they have always faced each other in ICC events. For instance even when Ind Pak were in the middle of Kargil war in '99 and all bilateral cricketing exchanges between Ind and Pak had been scrapped, they still faced each other in the Super Six stage of the '99 WC.

There are tonnes of other differences, like for instance ICC chooses the host, which is missing in bilateral series. Two boards can mutually decide a series and who will tour who. In a bilateral series if the boards agree the series can be played in another nation entirely. Ind Pak like I said have played bilateral series in Canada in the past. Pak plays all its matches in Dubai, because the teams no longer visit and Dubai is the mutually agreed venue by the boards, and ICC has very limited role here. In bilateral series there are no restriction on squad sizes. Ind came to Eng with 18 players other teams tour with 15. The host nation constantly chops and changes their squad through the series, like Jordan and Woakes, being brought into the series mid way by Eng, or last year in Ind Dhawan being brought into the side aginst Australia.

In ICC events all sides have the same number of players, submitted before the event to the ICC, and only those players play. Thus ICC exercises direct control over the squad sizes which is missing in bilateral events. The host side too must submit a squad at the start and cannot chop and change it in the middle of a tournament. So suddenly the host board cannot announce a new squad for their SF clash in an ICC event and recall a player who was injured so far.

Now I hope the difference between an ICC event and a bilateral event is clear to you.

Also with regard to, India's ODI history in Eng, why are you trying to ignore that India have won the Natwest series in 2002 beating England in the final and the much more prestigious CT, last year also beating Eng in the finals. So whether Ind have actually won a bilateral series in Eng or not is way secondary to the fact the Ind did win CT in Eng. No one is losing sleep over the fact that Ind have not won a bilateral series in Eng. They have won plenty of much more important trophies in Eng than some bilateral series - WC '83, and CT last year for instance. Which brings me back to the question what have Eng ever won.

I still really want Ind to win, but even if they don't India's legacy of winning major tournaments in England is far too tall to be affected by this bilateral series. Its taller than even England's. What mutlinational major event have England ever won in Eng?

As for the 4-1 scoreline, for starters, tomorrow's match is in all likelihood going to be washed out, so that alone takes care of that prediction. :) Your point though is well taken, India are not the favs to win. However that is because they are not in form and absolutely nothing to do with the fact that India are not likely to win because this is a bilateral series and Ind have a poor history. That is a wrong way of looking at it.

History has nothing to do with anything. Ind are not in form and hence not favs. Whether it was a bilateral series or a triangular series, Ind would not be favs to win.
OK.
 
India look to end 24-year wait | Cricket News | England v India | ESPN Cricinfo



So despite popular belief India have not 'done it all' as some may tend to think. I dont see them winning this series neither. England 4-1!

That means hardly anything because we have won multi-nation tournaments in England that have more context and are more difficult to win than bilateral ODI series in those 24 years. We came close to winning a fine ODI series in 2007, one of the very few 7 match series which was memorable.

It does not mean I`m making excuses for an Indian defeat but we are taking this argument way too far. Bear in mind that our recent ODI form has been poor as well with 6 consecutive losses in SA and NZ. We have to stick to this side and play our potential genuine matchwinners, even if it means bring Yuvraj back before the WC or take a gamble with Sanju Samson. I`ve seen enough of Rohit Sharma to be sure that on a big day, say a WC quarterfinal he will waste a lot of deliveries and get out for a useless 25. I would stick with Dhawan till the WC now and take a punt with Sanju Samson at the top. We need someone who can play the horizontal bat shots in AUS/NZ and someone at the top has to be good at that.

Kohli does not cut and pull ferociously and Raina is hopeless when he has to do that. Jadeja and Ashwin are the only other guys along with Raina who do that well. Rahane has to be in there as an anchor. I would have loved Pujara to be around for the WC in Australian conditions as he is a good cutter and puller of the ball. We don`t need 350+ each time we go out in overseas conditions. We need a side that can put up 270+ on a consistent basis in these conditions and not fluctuate too much.
 
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