India in England Jun-Sept 2014

[PokerAce]

Hopeless performance. I knew we were going to lose, but that was an embarrassment. Ian Bell has had a shocker. Jordan, as I have been saying for the last few months along with everyone else, is not good enough. What do the selectors see in him. We were told he could bowl 90 mph...well maybe he could, but he's wawyard bowling 82/83, let alone 90! I can;t understand for the life of me why Ballance and Ali, out two in form players, were not playing. I'm delighted with Hales getting 40. Hopefully he'll continue to make runs and get a chance ahead of the Aussie. Well done to India. You batted superbly (except Koli....)

I would love Ballance to play ODIs. I see him playing the next 12 years in tests for sure. I have heard he can hit the ball when he needs to. WOuld definitely like to see him in the ODIs too. Also Ali. I want to see Indian players play Ali without the pressure of having to play the 'test cricket way', and free to hit him from the off. If they still struggle then definitely there are issues to sort out.

I didn't think Ind were the favs going into the series as they were too low on confidence. After this match though, I think that table has turned. I would be disappointed if India don't push on from here. India' real test will be in the ODI triseries in Australia. Till then I would like to see India rotate more and try out new players, even if it means losing a few in the process.

 

[SaiSrini]

Right well done, but MSD and team India come on consider the larger public interest here, and find a way to lose the next three ODIs, or the sack MSD movement and witch hunt will have to be put off untill the Aus tour.

You seem to be getting on this sarcasm rampage of this "MSD witch hunt and blah blah blah....", but to be honest, I have not seen anyone here ever doubt MSD's credentials in ODI's. He is still the guy to lead us in ODI's.

 

[grkrama]

Same here. For them, Dhoni is going to be always good even though we have lost 8-0 under him in 2011, lost 2-1 to England at home, continue to keep losing to SA, NZ and now the 3-1 embarassment against England. More than the numbers, its the way that the team under Dhoni (and Dhoni himself) are just so so stubborn to not learn from the mistakes and their fetish to keep repeating their mistakes again and again, is why we are calling for Dhoni's head, seems to escape his newly found defenders in this forum.

I like how every time facts are given, you conveniently ignore them and resort to the same

we lost so much,

you are dhoni brigade......

........

Fire dhoni!!!

nice template though !

 

[SaiSrini]

Sir getting a 4 wicket haul .. just when you think he was losing his magic (terrible in Tests)

Maybe its England's masterplan to fool Dhoni into thinking that Sir is good enough to be played until death (whoever comes first).

 

[SaiSrini]

I like how every time facts are given, you conveniently ignore them and resort to the same
we lost so much,
you are dhoni brigade......
........
Fire dhoni!!!
nice template though !

I have been talking about this over and over and over and over and over again. I have given my exhaustive list of reasons why I want Dhoni replaced as TEST captain immediately. And I am not the only one. There is a growing list of people who are calling for Dhoni's removal from TEST CAPTAINCY. Even most of those who want Dhoni to continue as test captain till WC have either of these as the reasons, 1.) Kohli's failure in the test series and others not ready for test captaincy, 2.) Split captaincy wont work for India.

Go back in this thread and try to read my posts on this issue. Dhoni's decision making in tests (in fact at times in ODI's too, he shows it but the format allows him to get away with those occasional moments) has continued to be stubborn and non-responsive to constructive feedback. He has become incredibly defensive and laidback, waiting for things to happen. His body language when the team is against the wall, only seems to worsen the situation further (which is why we see these tumbling and embarassing defeats abroad; at home, our spinners and bowlers are more at ease and bring us back in the game mostly).

Read through before you start posting as aggressively!

 

[grkrama]

You certainly cant point fingers at him as a batsman in tests, as he is certainly effective in home and sc conditions, even overseas he is starting to somehow manage it out, though i doubt the technique he used in ENG will work in pacier pitches in aus, but lets see.

Wicket keeping generally he was upto scratch but last series was a bit shabby.

Captaincy again, he is ruthless machine in at home even in tests. Only problem is overseas captaincy alone, so just going by tests im not going to risk 70% good captain,batsman and wicket keeper, on the hope that a new captain may work wonders with the same talent pool.

I agree there's quite a few selection errors, but every captain on the planet past and present has them.

I take your point that you are a fan of MSD and being a critique of him, but i don't think its fair criticism putting all the blame on him. He is certainly not the root cause of our problems, every time something goes wrong we have this habit of blaming captain and stuff, were as the real faults are in the system, come on we are country of 1 billion surplus populous and we don't have players who are technically equipped to handle swing or pacers who can hit 150+.

why is the board not allowing more players to county matches, get drop-in pitches and train them. Pace bowling is not developing because of the roads we have for pitches here, i mean any talented young pacer will loose his heart before becoming a bowler here or loose his pace to become a bowler.

A squad that cant handle swing and cant bowl genuine pace and when they fail to win test matches overseas, we blame the captain im sorry i cant see the logic here. A few selection changes of marginally better or lesser players and having a deep man out or telling ishant to bowl short pitch wont work all time.

^Same, thats not aggression btw....just observant, the reasons you gave are totally not logical.

Split captaincy will work if it starts from t20s

 

[SaiSrini]

Back to the ODI, major morale boosting win for India. Though I am worried that Jaddu's 4 wkts has sealed his and Karn Sharma's fate for the rest of the series, still the big positives from this game are Raina's form and Shami's return to some semblance of a form. Since we are in World Cup year, wins like this assume significance in the current scheme of things.[DOUBLEPOST=1409164643][/DOUBLEPOST]

India in England Jun-Sept 2014 | Page 153 - PlanetCricket Forums

^Same, thats not aggression btw....just observant, the reasons you gave are totally not logical.

Split captaincy will work if it starts from t20s

I disagree. The format doesn't make a difference. Here, Dhoni is not comfortable in tests and therefore, he needs a break from captaincy in tests. It will also help him focus a lot more in ODI's when we are approaching a World Cup in a few months.

 

[PokerAce]

You seem to be getting on this sarcasm rampage of this "MSD witch hunt and blah blah blah....", but to be honest, I have not seen anyone here ever doubt MSD's credentials in ODI's. He is still the guy to lead us in ODI's.

3 blahs, wow clearly that sarcasm rampage seems to be getting to you. Which is odd since I never even mentioned you in any of those posts. Clearly you have taken those posts as addressed to you in some way. Also don't tell me that MSD losing the ODI series wouldn't help the sack MSD bridage. Tests and ODIs are not as independent of each other as you would like to think they are.


Look forget everything else, we are both Ind Cricket fans with two very different views on a sensitive topic. That is bound to happen from time to time. Just honestly tell me, please be honest, with regard to MSD and the test team, which of the following scenario fits. Be honest -

1) MSD is a poor captain of a potentially world dominating squad, who is keeping the team down in away tests. If not for Dhoni's leadership this side would blow away Australia in Australia in a few months time.

2) MSD is an average captain of an average side and combined they are leading to poor results away.

3) MSD is a good captain leading a shambolic side, and can only do so much and cannot bat and bowl and slip catch for the rest of the players, and hence poor results.


Which of the three is it?

 

[grkrama]

Here, Dhoni is not comfortable in tests and therefore, he needs a break from captaincy in tests. It will also help him focus a lot more in ODI's when we are approaching a World Cup in a few months.

How do you know he doesn't want to captain in tests? why does he need a break from captaining in tests, if at all he needs to take break it would be t20 captaincy and ipl captaincy, not tests, he is the best as of now to take the team forward, as of now there is no real alternative and there is actually no need to look for one, when you have a successful captain actually grooming a side, by the time he leaves we will have a good team, that's matured enough and have potential experienced leaders.

calling for his head right now is a knee jerk reaction, when we have problems in a lot of places that have to be addressed first, often stats never tell the whole story , that 8-0 team was different, this one is different, just because MSD is the common denominator in both cases doesn't make him the root cause.

I agree there are few marginal selection issues and a few defensive tactics in setting field which are not too unreasonable given our attack and resources, this are neither the cause of our defeats or not things that cant be rectified with a different coach complimenting the captain.

The real issue lies in the players themselves for which holding msd responsible is totally unfair.

 

[PokerAce]

How do you know he doesn't want to captain in tests? why does he need a break from captaining in tests, if at all he needs to take break it would be t20 captaincy and ipl captaincy, not tests, he is the best as of now to take the team forward, as of now there is no real alternative and there is actually no need to look for one, when you have a successful captain actually grooming a side, by the time he leaves we will have a good team, that's matured enough and have potential experienced leaders.

calling for his head right now is a knee jerk reaction, when we have problems in a lot of places that have to be addressed first, often stats never tell the whole story , that 8-0 team was different, this one is different, just because MSD is the common denominator in both cases doesn't make him the root cause.

I agree there are few marginal selection issues and a few defensive tactics in setting field which are not too unreasonable given our attack and resources, this are neither the cause of our defeats or not things that cant be rectified with a different coach complimenting the captain.

The real issue lies in the players themselves for which holding msd responsible is totally unfair.

I agree I think its time for MSD to retire from T20s, at least Int'l. THat is how the transition should start - T20 up and not Test Down. ... and let the reigns go to Kohli most likely. As for the rest, its all be said but if ppl don't want to listen what can one do.

 

[SaiSrini]

How do you know he doesn't want to captain in tests? why does he need a break from captaining in tests, if at all he needs to take break it would be t20 captaincy and ipl captaincy, not tests, he is the best as of now to take the team forward, as of now there is no real alternative and there is actually no need to look for one, when you have a successful captain actually grooming a side, by the time he leaves we will have a good team, that's matured enough and have potential experienced leaders.

calling for his head right now is a knee jerk reaction, when we have problems in a lot of places that have to be addressed first, often stats never tell the whole story , that 8-0 team was different, this one is different, just because MSD is the common denominator in both cases doesn't make him the root cause.

I agree there are few marginal selection issues and a few defensive tactics in setting field which are not too unreasonable given our attack and resources, this are neither the cause of our defeats or not things that cant be rectified with a different coach complimenting the captain.

The real issue lies in the players themselves for which holding msd responsible is totally unfair.

Uff..... When I said 'he is not comfortable in tests", its based on how his captaincy has panned out in tests. And until his minor slew of good scores in the recently concluded test series, SERIOUS questions were posed about his ability to bat in test cricket. Dhoni used to be a sitting duck when the new ball came around. Based on his good scores with the bat, the case could be made to keep him as keeper batsman but clearly his captaincy is completely gone downhill in tests. Before we lost with the veterans around. Now we are still losing as badly with the new guys around. That itself tells me that the problem is not with the talent, its with the handling of the talent and that is in the hands of the captain and coach. Dhoni's decisions have flummoxed people most of the time.

India dont play too many T20's from hereon till the WC. Our T20's are mostly IPL. If Dhoni needs a break from captaincy, it has to be tests because we have a series vs WI and the big one vs Australia before the WC. If Dhoni needs to focus on the WC, he needs to be relieved of test captaincy only. Even if we lose as badly with a new guy, it wont feel as bad because we can atleast say "we tried". Its a matter of trial and error because you cant point at one person and say "this guy will definitely succeed as captain". We pick the guy we think can best handle.

 

[Satan666]

I am amazed at what one win can do for the fans. As for MSD dropping the T20 captain tag, well thats foolish he should handover the ODI captaincy to Kohli before the world cup.

 

[Satan666]

India dont play too many T20's from hereon till the WC. Our T20's are mostly IPL. If Dhoni needs a break from captaincy, it has to be tests because we have a series vs WI and the big one vs Australia before the WC. If Dhoni needs to focus on the WC, he needs to be relieved of test captaincy only. Even if we lose as badly with a new guy, it wont feel as bad because we can atleast say "we tried". Its a matter of trial and error because you cant point at one person and say "this guy will definitely succeed as captain". We pick the guy we think can best handle.

Not a bad rationale there Sai. Makes sense. Kinda liking the thought of losing all in test cricket since I don't hold the world cup or ODI cricket in any regard. MSD is a workhorse but at the end of the day he is still the best tactical captain in limited overs, the world over at present.

 

[SaiSrini]

3 blahs, wow clearly that sarcasm rampage seems to be getting to you. Which is odd since I never even mentioned you in any of those posts. Clearly you have taken those posts as addressed to you in some way. Also don't tell me that MSD losing the ODI series wouldn't help the sack MSD bridage. Tests and ODIs are not as independent of each other as you would like to think they are.

Look forget everything else, we are both Ind Cricket fans with two very different views on a sensitive topic. That is bound to happen from time to time. Just honestly tell me, please be honest, with regard to MSD and the test team, which of the following scenario fits. Be honest -

1) MSD is a poor captain of a potentially world dominating squad, who is keeping the team down in away tests. If not for Dhoni's leadership this side would blow away Australia in Australia in a few months time.

2) MSD is an average captain of an average side and combined they are leading to poor results away.

3) MSD is a good captain leading a shambolic side, and can only do so much and cannot bat and bowl and slip catch for the rest of the players, and hence poor results.

Which of the three is it?

I know you didn't mention me, but your sarcasm was strong enough for me to think I was part of that brigade. Who else in this forum has called for MSD's head in tests?

Your scenarios are too exaggerated and also there are a lot of unknowns right now. Purely based on talent, our side definitely gives the feeling of possibly being a world dominating squad. We have rarely had a problem with talent. Its the issue of translating it into performance. And a good captain can really help in the players translating their talent into performance, if they are picked at the right times and if they are given good fields (for bowlers), bat at the right places, etc.[DOUBLEPOST=1409169119][/DOUBLEPOST]

Not a bad rationale there Sai. Makes sense. Kinda liking the thought of losing all in test cricket since I don't hold the world cup or ODI cricket in any regard. MSD is a workhorse but at the end of the day he is still the best tactical captain in limited overs, the world over at present.

World Cup currently is the most important right now for most teams (even England who have the most detractors for ODI's, seem to consider this current ODI series as World Cup prep).

 

[PokerAce]

I know you didn't mention me, but your sarcasm was strong enough for me to think I was part of that brigade. Who else in this forum has called for MSD's head in tests?

Your scenarios are too exaggerated and also there are a lot of unknowns right now. Purely based on talent, our side definitely gives the feeling of possibly being a world dominating squad. We have rarely had a problem with talent. Its the issue of translating it into performance. And a good captain can really help in the players translating their talent into performance, if they are picked at the right times and if they are given good fields (for bowlers), bat at the right places, etc.

Ok look I know we have a different opinion on this but its getting heated to a point of being a little bit silly. Its not like we have to actually decide MSD's future. Sure we have aired our opinions but I guess we have to agree to disagree.

Now with regard to what you said, you believe that the sqaud is ready to be a world dominating squad and that is where I differ. I actually think this team is no where near ready. Unsettled openers, no real bowling threat, forget world class bowlers not even test quality bowlers, no one bowler who averages below 30, batting mainstays going through the rut of their lives, doesn't spell a world beating side to me. That is why I feel taking away the leadership of the most experienced player there is, and leaving them to fend for themselves is the most suicidal thing that could happen to this side.