India in England Jun-Sept 2014

[PokerAce]

Okay India are in real trouble in AUs ... even more than they were earlier. Warne vs Warner - Gfycat

 

[Satan666]

I know you didn't mention me, but your sarcasm was strong enough for me to think I was part of that brigade. Who else in this forum has called for MSD's head in tests?

Your scenarios are too exaggerated and also there are a lot of unknowns right now. Purely based on talent, our side definitely gives the feeling of possibly being a world dominating squad. We have rarely had a problem with talent. Its the issue of translating it into performance. And a good captain can really help in the players translating their talent into performance, if they are picked at the right times and if they are given good fields (for bowlers), bat at the right places, etc.[DOUBLEPOST=1409169119][/DOUBLEPOST]

World Cup currently is the most important right now for most teams (even England who have the most detractors for ODI's, seem to consider this current ODI series as World Cup prep).

After today's Aus-SA game this world cup seems an open one. India shouldnt be to worried if the bowling come come around they should put up a fight, the batting is good.

 

[abhi_jacko]

And a good captain can really help in the players translating their talent into performance, if they are picked at the right times and if they are given good fields (for bowlers), bat at the right places, etc

THIS is Spot-On. I really don't want to get s*cked into this never-ending discussion again but I cant help but appreciate this point you have made.

I will give two examples from the Dhoni/Fletcher era - a good and a bad.

1. Turning Rohit Sharma into the opener, after repeated failures in the middle order. I am sure Rohit was asked to go out of his comfort zone (the middle order) if he wanted to stick in the team, and the directive to open the innings gave him a clear cut idea on what his role was. A positive influence of the captain/coach/management. It worked wonders for the team and produced results(atleast initially )

2. Ashwin - went from getting 20 wickets in a series and being our frontline spinner to being this backup option who would just be used to "hold up one end". And these were MSD's words in a press conference. I know people will argue .. but in the end of the day, it was Ashwin who dint bowl well and dint get wickets. But if you are clearly asking your supposed frontline spinner to rein in his attacking skills and just "hold up one end" it puts the player in a different mindset. We saw the worst phase of Ashwin where he was bowling 6 different deliveries in an over, and not getting any wickets (he seems to be coming back into his own recently)

 

[grkrama]

Its a matter of trial and error because you cant point at one person and say "this guy will definitely succeed as captain". We pick the guy we think can best handle.

Captaincy is never a matter of trial and error, its a national Test team not school team to tryout captains, hence the word grooming.

When I said 'he is not comfortable in tests", its based on how his captaincy has panned out in tests. And until his minor slew of good scores in the recently concluded test series, SERIOUS questions were posed about his ability to bat in test cricket. Dhoni used to be a sitting duck when the new ball came around.

seriously all those performances he gets at home conditions and SC don't merit him as a batmsan, he has always got those fifties and he is a wicket keeper batsman, he more than merits his place in that regard.

We dont have proper openers for gods sake so he is not the only one in the team with new ball problems and at 5 down it hardly matters unless its 8-4 which he seemed to manage pretty well.

If Dhoni needs a break from captaincy, it has to be tests because we have a series vs WI and the big one vs Australia before the WC. If Dhoni needs to focus on the WC, he needs to be relieved of test captaincy only.

He has managed all three formats pretty well so far. till WC no need to try this rest formula unless its against minnows. We seriously need him on the aus tour, wheter he looses or wins wont affect to him much going to WC, but sending the team without him would be totally illogical of a high profile tour.Obviously its not going to happen, im just surprised at your points.

 

[grkrama]

a good and a bad.

ya all captains have those good,bad and ugly stuff

like dada for bhaji would be a hero for murali karthick a bane, same way clarke messed with watson, cook with everybody around him, case in point they dont get sacked for that.
when you are dealing with a bunch of people and especially while criticizing with hind sight its always easy to point a slew of errors.

you help the captain to get better with support staff and stuff not sack him, like clarke has been made, simply put you only sack abysmal captains.


also im not attacking or anything, nice argument to get into even if we are not the ones who get to call the shots.

im sure sai and you are as much a fan of our indian team as myself, so whats wrong in talking of our views and challenging it when we differ.

 

[PokerAce]

2. Ashwin - went from getting 20 wickets in a series and being our frontline spinner to being this backup option who would just be used to "hold up one end". And these were MSD's words in a press conference. I know people will argue .. but in the end of the day, it was Ashwin who dint bowl well and dint get wickets. But if you are clearly asking your supposed frontline spinner to rein in his attacking skills and just "hold up one end" it puts the player in a different mindset. We saw the worst phase of Ashwin where he was bowling 6 different deliveries in an over, and not getting any wickets (he seems to be coming back into his own recently)

I am not sure if Ashwin was ever a 20 wicket man overseas. In India I am sure he is still expected to be a 20 wkt man. Also hold up role is what kumble did on overseas tours. Even if he was not getting wickets overseas, kumble would hold up one end, and the seamers would bowl around him. What is wrong with that role.

 

[IceAgeComing]

I really don't want to get s*cked into this never-ending discussion

There is no need to censor "sucked". especially since it isn't a bad word in any context.

 

[abhi_jacko]

There is no need to censor "sucked". especially since it isn't a bad word in any context.

I offer sincere apologies

 

[Epic]

I have said this for what seems like the millionth time now, but this debate just won't seem to die, there is literally no point changing Test captains ahead of the away tour of Australia with it being our last away tour for a good while (against South Africa, New Zealand, England and Australia at least), change captains after that if you're going to, giving the new captain a strong base of home series' (it will be South Africa, New Zealand, England and Australia's turn to tour us) to build of off before eventually facing the tougher challenge of overseas Tests.

 

[abhi_jacko]

I am not sure if Ashwin was ever a 20 wicket man overseas. In India I am sure he is still expected to be a 20 wkt man. Also hold up role is what kumble did on overseas tours. Even if he was not getting wickets overseas, kumble would hold up one end, and the seamers would bowl around him. What is wrong with that role.

The problem, my friend, is that Ashwin would actually have been a lot more valuable to us as an attacking spinner overseas. Especially if the attack consists of only 3 other specialist bowlers. Despite being an attacking spinner and tasting great success at home, he was asked to to be the support guy overseas. Makes no sense. I was actually appalled when I had read that press conference transcript by MSD.

Regarding Kumble, he was always our main spinner tasked with getting wickets. Only when he was not able to get any purchase did he bowl to dry runs up. And there is nothing wrong with that. But Ashwin was directed to be defensive.

 

[PokerAce]

The problem, my friend, is that Ashwin would actually have been a lot more valuable to us as an attacking spinner overseas. Especially if the attack consists of only 3 other specialist bowlers. Despite being an attacking spinner and tasting great success at home, he was asked to to be the support guy overseas. Makes no sense. I was actually appalled when I had read that press conference transcript by MSD.

Regarding Kumble, he was always our main spinner tasked with getting wickets. Only when he was not able to get any purchase did he bowl to dry runs up. And there is nothing wrong with that. But Ashwin was directed to be defensive.

Okay Kumble was much of a success overseas, and thus he was defensive mostly. Second you cannot just react to whatever is said in the press conferences. For all you know MSD may have been shielding Ashwin as captains do. No Ashwin was not poor, I asked him to be defensive. You will be amazed by how little of what is said in press conferences is the gospel truth.

 

[SaiSrini]

Yes, this discussion seems to be going around in never ending circles. But I do have to say, it seems like we have some new "paragraph posters" here whose posts are pretty interesting to read and thereby I get sucked into the discussions.

My only hope is for India not to make a fool out of themselves when we tour Australia for the test series.

 

[PokerAce]

I really miss the days when Cricinfo used to do tweet reports. They were one of the funniest things to read at the end of any match. I would like them to restart it.

 

[abhi_jacko]

@PokerAce

I would rather go by Dhoni's words over your interpretation of his words

 

[PokerAce]

@PokerAce

I would rather go by Dhoni's words over your interpretation of his words

I am not interpreting his words. Just telling you that press conferences are about making the 'right noises' for public consumption, than about speaking the gospel truth. So its advisable not to believe everything said in press conferences as the absolute truth.

What you choose to believe or not is entirely upto you. If you want to take everything at face value, that is your call.