India tour of South Africa

[LiveLoveABD]

Well, I am neither Kohli nor the team management. I cant answer that question. I told yesterday itself that Kohli has sounded out Rahane for No.4 and so he will be picked. I was not in favor of it, though. Rahane is a momentum sucker anywhere else other than opening.

He drowns the momentum even as opener. He is just not fit for limited overs.

 

[aditya123]

Well, I am neither Kohli nor the team management. I cant answer that question. I told yesterday itself that Kohli has sounded out Rahane for No.4 and so he will be picked. I was not in favor of it, though. Rahane is a momentum sucker anywhere else other than opening.

Although I agree with the fact that Rahane as an ODI player has a lot to improve, the current Indian side has had issues of stability in the middle order. The No.4 slot in particular has given us headaches. It would`nt thus be a bad idea, in overseas conditions, to play Jinx at No.4 if he can give us consistency with a reasonable run-a-ball strike rate. In games where we are placed well, say 200/2, we could always send a Jadhav or a Pandya up the order. You do not always need all batsmen scoring at 130+ strike rates to win big tournaments. You need to cover for a variety of situations and someone like Rahane could potentially do what someone like Joe Root does for England. Even Smith, for that matter in ODIs, is'nt your conventional swashbuckler. I think this is an experiment worth trying, and if successful, could make us look a really strong unit going into 2019.

 

[aditya123]

He drowns the momentum even as opener. He is just not fit for limited overs.

That is an argument that one could make for Dhoni as well. He is as big a momentum sucker as any in this side. In fact, I have`nt seen anyone losing more games in the recent past due to the inability to rotate strike and limited scoring areas as Dhoni. This is not the Dhoni circa 2011 that Im talking of but the current avatar. Be it for his IPL club or India, he has sucked momentum in several run chases. Dhoni's biggest asset currently is to stabilize a drowning ship. He cannot be batting any lower than No.5 either. That is what has added to the ODI conundrum. Rohit as an ODI batsman in challenging situations is still a question mark. While Dhawan has shown his ability to handle big-game situations, the same cannot be said of Rohit. As Sai pointed out, he plays far too many dot balls at the start of his innings as well, and more often than not also throws it away against good attacks. This is what has forced this side to play Rahane at No.4. This is exactly the kind of situation someone like Rahane might be valuable. Imagine a wobbly No.4 with the score at 67/2. Now with this 80 run partnership, we have ensured that the likes of Pandya and Jadhav do not have too much to do, unlike the CT final. Sometimes, you can afford someone doing that job in the top 4, unless you are chasing 350+.

We simply do not have stability in the top order bar Kohli. Also, he might be overcompensating for foolishly dropping Jinx from tests .

 

[Ashutosh.]

A wonderful half century by [HASHTAG]#King[/HASHTAG]Kohli

 

[abhi_jacko]

All this talk of momentum sucking reminds me of how we got rid of Dravid and replaced him with "stroke makers", only leading to frequent collapses in unfriendly positions.

Rahane can easily anchor the innings. Talking about his SR. Rohit too has a SR of 80 Away from home and this includes matches played in Sri Lanka/West Indies.
Kane Williamson scores at 83. I am not saying he is ideal for batting at no.4 or for ODIs, but I don't thing it is a bad idea to try him out either. He can improve his game. This is the right time to test out whatever combinations so we can have a settled lineup by end of this year. Right now he is playing perfect foil to Kohli, running hard, rotating the strike. Providing stability, which we usually lack.[DOUBLEPOST=1517506439][/DOUBLEPOST]The big question is, can we afford to have both Dhoni and Rahane in the same line up. Both can be clubbed as "momentum suckers" by definition, i.e. not scoring fast enough as the top 3

 

[aditya123]

All this talk of momentum sucking reminds me of how we got rid of Dravid and replaced him with "stroke makers", only leading to frequent collapses in unfriendly positions.

Rahane can easily anchor the innings. Talking about his SR. Rohit too has a SR of 80 Away from home and this includes matches played in Sri Lanka/West Indies.
Kane Williamson scores at 83. I am not saying he is ideal for batting at no.4 or for ODIs, but I don't thing it is a bad idea to try him out either. He can improve his game. This is the right time to test out whatever combinations so we can have a settled lineup by end of this year. Right now he is playing perfect foil to Kohli, running hard, rotating the strike. Providing stability, which we usually lack.[DOUBLEPOST=1517506439][/DOUBLEPOST]The big question is, can we afford to have both Dhoni and Rahane in the same line up. Both can be clubbed as "momentum suckers" by definition, i.e. not scoring fast enough as the top 3

The point is that we can have him in the side and not bat him at No.4 if its a really good track and we have a start that is say 200/2. However, where we could really do with a test pedigree batsman at No.4 is in situations like the CT final. Imagine if we had someone to battle it out at No.4 that day and wear the early threat away, a la Dravid. I still feel you can afford one Root, Williamson, Rahane kind of batsman in your ODI lineup. The real elephant in the room that we seem to dodge is the one regarding Dhoni, as you said. Yes, he is a superb keeper and a great mind but his ODI batting, considering his reluctance to bat up the order leaves a lot to be desired. I'm a huge Pandey fan and believe he has the skills to be a top class ODI batsman. Howver, I would still bet on Rahane ahead of Kartik or Iyer at No.4. I also feel its about eliminating from the available options starting now. Between now and the end of the England ODI series, we will have a clear picture as to who loses out on their WC slots. Also, we should completely ignore home ODIs while doing this, to get a clearer picture.

 

[abhi_jacko]

The real elephant in the room that we seem to dodge is the one regarding Dhoni, as you said. Yes, he is a superb keeper and a great mind but his ODI batting, considering his reluctance to bat up the order leaves a lot to be desired.

Agreed. I think this series will help us get some answers on this. Dhoni has mentioned that he wants to bat "freely" while acknowledging that he has slowed down than he did before.

 

[SaiSrini]

That is an argument that one could make for Dhoni as well. He is as big a momentum sucker as any in this side. In fact, I have`nt seen anyone losing more games in the recent past due to the inability to rotate strike and limited scoring areas as Dhoni. This is not the Dhoni circa 2011 that Im talking of but the current avatar. Be it for his IPL club or India, he has sucked momentum in several run chases. Dhoni's biggest asset currently is to stabilize a drowning ship. He cannot be batting any lower than No.5 either. That is what has added to the ODI conundrum. Rohit as an ODI batsman in challenging situations is still a question mark. While Dhawan has shown his ability to handle big-game situations, the same cannot be said of Rohit. As Sai pointed out, he plays far too many dot balls at the start of his innings as well, and more often than not also throws it away against good attacks. This is what has forced this side to play Rahane at No.4. This is exactly the kind of situation someone like Rahane might be valuable. Imagine a wobbly No.4 with the score at 67/2. Now with this 80 run partnership, we have ensured that the likes of Pandya and Jadhav do not have too much to do, unlike the CT final. Sometimes, you can afford someone doing that job in the top 4, unless you are chasing 350+.

We simply do not have stability in the top order bar Kohli. Also, he might be overcompensating for foolishly dropping Jinx from tests .

I dont have a problem with Rahane playing if he is the only momentum sucker. But as it is, we have Dhoni who has lost his big hitting mojo and struggles to get the big hits going. Then we have Jadhav who is another guy who is not a natural big hitter (though he does hit well when he connects). Rohit is another guy who needs tons of time before he gets going. So keeping Rahane pulls us down in that aspect.

 

[aditya123]

Also, on a completely tangential path, its baffling as to how Rahane was not picked for the first two tests. This is essentially the SA test attack and he is at ease against them. Also, his last two test innings against SA were hundreds, and his last ODI innings against SA was a rapid 85 at Mumbai in that final ODI. Add to that the matchwinning 60-ball 80 against the same attack at the MCG in the 2015 WC, one clearly can see that he loves facing SA! We could have done with someone batting alongside Kohli at Centurion. I dare say we were in a position to fetch a 100-run lead if we had someone batting alongside Kohli. This is a decision that we fans are going to regret for ages. We may never get a better chance to win in SA ever again.

 

[SaiSrini]

The real elephant in the room that we seem to dodge is the one regarding Dhoni, as you said. Yes, he is a superb keeper and a great mind but his ODI batting, considering his reluctance to bat up the order leaves a lot to be desired

Is Dhoni being allowed to bat up the order? He is not captain anymore, and it has been the belief that he is not being pushed up the order by Kohli and management.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

As outstanding as Faf was with the bat today, he was just pathetic as captain.

 

[Gaurav_7]

The Rahane on show today has looked different tbh. I might be biased being his fan but I actually feel he has rotated the strike beautifully today and also played shots when it mattered.

 

[SaiSrini]

To his credit, excellent innings from Rahane. He has more than made up on his strike rate and this should now be a canter for India. Shows how superbly Kuldeep and Chahal have performed in this match.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

The comparison between Dhoni and Rahane is laughable. Dhoni just by his keeping walks in the side. Also, in the past year while Dhoni has not been devastating he has still more hitting prowess than Rahane. We will romp home here thanks to Kohli who's shepherded this chase with his genius as usual but this is an awful long term solution. Dhoni at 4 is must.[DOUBLEPOST=1517507869][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, I am literally amazed at how poor SA bowlers are. This Phelukwayo is an absolute excuse for a bowler.

 

[aditya123]

I dont have a problem with Rahane playing if he is the only momentum sucker. But as it is, we have Dhoni who has lost his big hitting mojo and struggles to get the big hits going. Then we have Jadhav who is another guy who is not a natural big hitter (though he does hit well when he connects). Rohit is another guy who needs tons of time before he gets going. So keeping Rahane pulls us down in that aspect.

The question is who among your momentum-sucking lot potentially offers the most consistency. According to me, Rahane would rank above Dhoni, Jadhav and even Sharma (against good pace bowling overseas) in terms of offering consistency and stability. That is why his exclusion should'nt be a foregone conclusion. It is'nt entirely a matter of pure firepower always. It has to be a combination of consistency and firepower. As we speak, Rahane has scored 9 fifties in his last 12 innings to go with a 40 in the other 3. If he can offer what he has done today, on a regular basis, Rahane would be a definite fit for the WC side in my book. Don't forget the skills he would bring to the table as a fielder as well.