South Africa in England
- Thread starter Sureshot
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Collingwood50
County Cricketer
same here, though we dont want to put to much pressure on the lad
Pressure?! He is playing Test cricket!
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Valaskjalf
Club Captain
Well I acknowledge your point...but still they make him out to be some kind of superstar or something - Botham-esque if you will....which I think is a bit rediculous. If you look at someone like Sobers, it puts the whole aura surrounding Flintoff to shame really....even Kallis (before he started to become more of a batter than a real allrounder...and now hes fat and cant bat. He has only averaged more than 50 for a series with the bat in 4 of his last 10 series). Whereas Flintoff has only averaged more than 30 with the bat in 7 of the 22 series he's been involved in! Not trying to make a comparison between the two or "whos got the best alrounder" just trying to put things into perspective and trying to undertsand why people are trying to make Fred out to be the wonder boy of English cricket.
Bit unfair on Flintoff i suppose, he didnt ask for all the attention but his averages are all pretty much just that - average.
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Collingwood50
County Cricketer
(ive been told not to use text speak, which for the record was an accident)
It is with the deepest melancholy that one must express my aggrement at Valaskjalf's formentioned point, that can be seen if one was to look above me.
Whilst one accpets that a certain Andrew Flintoff is a rather splendid player, he may indeed not be all that some chaps cut him out to be. I say it would be jolly spiffing if we all just stopped blaming Flintoff and then Collingwood and then Vaughan for all our test mishaps, and jolly well let England get on with the job and beat the South Africans
I hope that much benevolence will be recieved of a dark sunday night, when i may sit down in my bed chamber, and turn on the wireless to hear that old boy Boycott declaring that our boys have successfully battled against the bosh and beaten those South Africans by 10 wickets, with My dear Colly scroing a magical tripple ton
It is with the deepest melancholy that one must express my aggrement at Valaskjalf's formentioned point, that can be seen if one was to look above me.
Whilst one accpets that a certain Andrew Flintoff is a rather splendid player, he may indeed not be all that some chaps cut him out to be. I say it would be jolly spiffing if we all just stopped blaming Flintoff and then Collingwood and then Vaughan for all our test mishaps, and jolly well let England get on with the job and beat the South Africans
I hope that much benevolence will be recieved of a dark sunday night, when i may sit down in my bed chamber, and turn on the wireless to hear that old boy Boycott declaring that our boys have successfully battled against the bosh and beaten those South Africans by 10 wickets, with My dear Colly scroing a magical tripple ton
He is a cricketer who has the respect of all his contemporaries. So are they all wrong?
You're right his averages aren't that great. But he did have several years of brilliance in both disciplines and is now one of the most consistent bowlers in the world.
Botham was a different type of cricket to Flintoff anyway, similar in the batting stakes, but Botham was a swing bowler, Flintoff is a workhorse, hit the pitch bowler. He uses pace, aggression and accuracy to get wickets.
He started his international career to early in earnest, but to say he is an average cricketer is wrong.
I mean who else can say they are an experienced pedalo driver? I don't think kallis even fits in a pedalo.
In all seriousness Flintoff is a great cricketer. He not only has the on field attirbutes but he has an amazing cricket brain and he is an enterainer on and off the pitch.
Your right Andrew Flintoff is one of the best cricketers in the world, but right now he isn't quite there. I would say that he would make almost any team in the world with his bowling alone, but when his batting is at full flight he is easily the best all-rounder in the world.
I disagree. He's had 1 test back and bowled ok. He's not one of the best cricketers in the world. He can be once he gets back into things. He was the best all-rounder in the world for a while around that Ashes series, however since then, he's been a good bowler who hasn't done much with the bat.
I can name a handful of all-rounders who are better than Flintoff now-a-days.
I can name a handful of all-rounders who are better than Flintoff now-a-days.
oh dear, selectors have been busy not thinking. Harmison has an average of near 60 against the South Africans, and while his home record may be better than his away record, take away NZ, BAN, WIN and ZIM and you have near enough his overall record. And his home record vs South Africa is 9 wickets at around 45 each.
Collingwood in contention, well that just means we could include two out of form batsmen. Vaughan is on a run of 371 runs in 15 inns, Collingwood's form is about the same.
How exactly does this latest squad help? We'll be trying to squeeze in Flintoff, Harmison, Sidebottom, Anderson and Panesar, if they all play we'll have four tailenders with some but not much batting and the keeper or Flintoff at six - that didn't work at Headingley. If we increase the bowling firepower how will that solve the problem of scoring under par in both innings? Our first innings effort was feeble, Sidebottom and Harmison won't improve that much. And second innings was largely down to some 'long after the match was over as a contest' runs from Broad who I assume everyone is now concluding will be dropped. As it happens Broad scored more runs in that one innings than all but one of the top seven scored in both.
I would revert to four bowlers, effectively going back to the 1st Test XI but with Flintoff replacing Broad.
Strauss
Cook
Vaughan
Pietersen
Bell
Collingwood
Flintoff
Ambrose
Sidebottom
Anderson
Panesar
I've looked at the stats of 'five bowler theory', we win less games than with four bowlers and away from home it is disastrous. All EIGHT Ashes Tests played down under since 2000 with five bowlers have resulted in defeat. The only two wins with five bowlers against the aussies were very close - 2 runs and 3 wickets, either could have been defeats.
Collingwood in contention, well that just means we could include two out of form batsmen. Vaughan is on a run of 371 runs in 15 inns, Collingwood's form is about the same.
How exactly does this latest squad help? We'll be trying to squeeze in Flintoff, Harmison, Sidebottom, Anderson and Panesar, if they all play we'll have four tailenders with some but not much batting and the keeper or Flintoff at six - that didn't work at Headingley. If we increase the bowling firepower how will that solve the problem of scoring under par in both innings? Our first innings effort was feeble, Sidebottom and Harmison won't improve that much. And second innings was largely down to some 'long after the match was over as a contest' runs from Broad who I assume everyone is now concluding will be dropped. As it happens Broad scored more runs in that one innings than all but one of the top seven scored in both.
I would revert to four bowlers, effectively going back to the 1st Test XI but with Flintoff replacing Broad.
Strauss
Cook
Vaughan
Pietersen
Bell
Collingwood
Flintoff
Ambrose
Sidebottom
Anderson
Panesar
I've looked at the stats of 'five bowler theory', we win less games than with four bowlers and away from home it is disastrous. All EIGHT Ashes Tests played down under since 2000 with five bowlers have resulted in defeat. The only two wins with five bowlers against the aussies were very close - 2 runs and 3 wickets, either could have been defeats.
venom2011
Club Cricketer
I don't understand how England can want to go with 5 bowlers, when the batting lineup is struggling. England either need to go with 4 (including a spinner) or find a number 6 who can bowl a few, effective overs.
SA are lucky to have Kallis who is arguably the best 5th bowler in the world, and it really makes selection issues a lot easier.
SA are lucky to have Kallis who is arguably the best 5th bowler in the world, and it really makes selection issues a lot easier.
Valaskjalf
Club Captain
Yeah dude, I do feel England are having a problem with their line-up because its pretty difficult to counter our batting line-up at the moment. The first time in forever that 5 of our top 6 are in form EXCLUDING Kallis, thats never happened. And I think England know that so they need to be really certain of their bowling and are looking at 5 bowlers - but then that leaves their out of touch batting line-up even more frail with the extra bowlers...So in effect they're left playing musical chairs as it were. On the plus side for them they dont have Steyn to compete with and I think that really evens things out more than we're willing to admit.
How do you feel about Kallis though? For the first time in ages Im not very confident in his batting and his bowling can either come off or not, hes not as reliable as he used to be with the ball. Whats your feeling on this man?
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That's exactly what i'd select as well given the current squad.
And about Kallis, he's fine. If he goes through a small patch of some bad form it's not the end of the world. He's averaging 33.25 this year with the bat and 35.45 with the ball. Very handy figures when you consider them both together. Sure, they're not up with his usual averages, but he deserves a good chance to get the ball rolling again. He's not letting the team down terribly with those figures. Plus, South Africa would have to bring in an all-rounder to replace him and I can't think of anyone of his talent waiting on the sidelines. He got some runs in the warm-ups so he can't be far away from a good sized score.
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Valaskjalf
Club Captain
Yeah I suppose you're right, we've been a bit spoiled with his 5wkt hauls and centuries over the past 13 years, and the only other allrounder we have is Albie Morkel but hes very inexperienced cant even say from the top of my head whether hes played in a test yet.
If Kallis does (hopefully) hit form soon then I cant see England pulling this series out of the fire. I must commend our team accordingly though, usually if Kallis misfires we sort of end up with a panic attack and flop out for 200 but the guys have stood up immensely well!
