It's time for Ganguly to step down @#$^&*

[sohum]

No one is forcing anyone to read a long post--how does the length of the post matter? It is better to get your thought through completely and coherently instead of chopping up your ideas into separate posts. I don't know what problem people have with long posts when what they seem to say is one sentence which doesn't even make sense, let alone have a proper grammatical structure.

As for Ganguly, some great points were brought up. And besides (and here's a lame one) no game can be won due to individual efforts--when you're in the field, the whole team has to take care of the ball. Or it loses its shine or whatever which makes it a less potent weapon. And despite all the runs scored or whatever, its the bowlers who ultimately win the game, especially in the case of a test match.

 

[fardin]

I suggest squiz to close this topic.It is getting out of control.

 

[brad352]

Actually, it's reasonably intelligent debate

 

[fardin]

No one is forcing anyone to read a long post--how does the length of the post matter? It is better to get your thought through completely and coherently instead of chopping up your ideas into separate posts. I don't know what problem people have with long posts when what they seem to say is one sentence which doesn't even make sense, let alone have a proper grammatical structure.

As for Ganguly, some great points were brought up. And besides (and here's a lame one) no game can be won due to individual efforts--when you're in the field, the whole team has to take care of the ball. Or it loses its shine or whatever which makes it a less potent weapon. And despite all the runs scored or whatever, its the bowlers who ultimately win the game, especially in the case of a test match.

Ok what ever?

Ganguly is the best captain in the world

are you happy now? :

 

[SaiSrini]

Fardin, i think no one here is fighting to say "Ganguly is the best captain in the world". The people who argue for him are trying to make others know that he is not a bad captain and he has done some good for the team.

many of ur messages seem childish at times. every topic in this forum doesnt need reply. so, if u are tired of reading long posts, you can skip the topic.. this debate is interesting and both sides of the coin has some reasonable arguments supporting their side!

 

[sachinisgod]

Yes,he also has 40+ avg in test matches.During India's tour of Australia he was picked in the squard.His scores were somthing like 55,80,etc in the practice matches against Victoria,Queensland.

Wheras,Akash Chopa scored somthing like 14,20,in practice matches and he was picked in the final 11 which played Australia.
This is a pure example of Ganguly's lunatic ideas.
Now Ramesh is doomed.He has crossed his thirties.He is 30+.It's no use for him to return to the national team at this age.
He had once mentioned that he was depressed by his treatment.He became so depressed that he did not perform well this Ranji season & was rested(dropped) from Tamil Nadu team....sad...realy sad. :crying

dude i think i disagree abt the chopra part...the fact is that Ramesh has been tried on one or two foreign tours before and after 1999 WC(perhaps in that damning series down under) and never did what Chetan Chahuan did with Sunny...gobble up the time(in tests)...which Chopra did fantastically well...he had a problem with not converting the starts but he did take fairly long starts in terms of time and it doesn't need to be reiterated that the opening partnerships in that test series were some of the best after Sunny played his last test...also a bit of rapport between Sehwag and Chopra would have added more weight to Chopra' side...I agree Ramesh was not given an enough run in the tests but then Ganguly isn't to blame there...most of the time his skipper was either Azar or Sachin and at that time the team was selected purely on regional basis...its thanks to Ganguly and Wright that the system has been trashed(though sometimes it still rears its ugly head - or so we feel)...

And yeah perhaps Ganguly is a bit lunatic(whimsical I would say)...but this lunacy has paid off many rich dividends for India in the recent past...

Ajit said that Ganguly doesn't give enough fielders to Irfan on leg side...but the point is that what is the mode of play at that time...if India are defensive at that point of time then definitely Irfan should have an extra leg side fielder(mid-wicket and square leg both)...but if we are looking to take wickets then the fantastic incoming delivery that Irfan bowls can be made use of better when the batsman is shown the "carrot" of gaps(esp squarer) on the leg side...in fact i think the ploy has worked excellently with Irfan to Yousuf Youhana (in Lahore ODI's) and Agarkar to Langer (in Australia 2003-04)...the only thing that Ganguly would have to decide is whether saving runs is important at that time or taking wickets...and his nature is such that 60% of the time he would go for the latter...


I don't think this thread should be closed...irrespective of some heated posts(a few by me too - I apologize) as someone said above its a pretty cool debate...and in school debates we do not consider accepting defeat - do we?

 

[Ajit]

...and you go on typing ridiculously long posts for no reason...he may win 10 world cups for u and still u may keep writing them..

10 World cups, in my opinion what we are waiting for is

A test(probably test series) defeat against Bangladesh
Defeats against Namibia,Netherlands,Canada,UAE,USA,...

Now, let me tell you what we've actually achieved under Dada

Tournaments
1.Natwest Trophy Victory(that's the only tournament if you know, World Cup!)

Away Good Performances
1.1-1 draw against England
2.1-1 draw against Australia
3.1-2 loss against Windies
4.1-1 draw against guess who? Zimbabwe
5.1-0 victory against Pakistan(1-1 was under Dravid)
6.1-2 loss against Sri Lanka
7.3 wins against Bangladesh

Home performances
To be very true, under Sourav Ganguly India learned to suck at home. It was under Ganguly after 13 years that an away team beat India in India. After 35 years Australia finally conquered the final frontier.

Sounds great! Doesn't it? Well, first have a close look on what's what?
The extraordinary thing has obviously been great away performances.
But remember,
1.We didn't play the super strong English and Windie teams as they were in 70's or 80's.
2.The Aussie team missed the services of McGrath and Warne in Australia and as far as home is concerned, they used to be beaten earlier as well(35 years).
3.Zimbabwe, Bangladesh - You call them achievements
4.Pakistan - that's something I respect, but the Pindi pitch was such that fielding first meant victory.
5.The one win against SRL was really great.

Still, I can't deny he was good captain as far as all this is concerned.

I AM NOT HERE TO PROVE THAT INDIA HAVE ACHIEVED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING UNDER GANGULY BUT THE TRUTH IS THAT IT'S SOURAV'S TIME TO RETIRE, SAY WHATEVER

.i suppose you think that everyone's opinion is malleable except yours and hence you can bend them...but unfortunately my opinion on this issue is harder than diamond...

I can't understand why everyone feels like this. I ain't here to change ur opinions but I just can't agree when you say Sourav's best ever, this or that. He has done nothing too big.

And souravisgod(I haven't read a single post of yours supporting sachin),
consider India's overall team-strength and you'll find they've been an underachieving side.They
1.are yet to win overseas(since 18 years and still counting)
2.haven't won any tournament except Natwest Trophy.

Thus we work with numbers. And Ganguram has been India's best in terms of wins or whatever.

Numbers,...
Considering ODIs since World Cup 2003, we had 20 wins,21 losses and 3 draws, or 20 wins from 44 matches. Not Bad.
4 wins against Zimbabwe, 5 wins against Bangladesh, 1 each against UAE and Kenya, subtract them, you get
9 wins,21 losses,3 draws or 9 wins of 33 games. just to tell you how an extremely poor record is made to look good. What used to be the case with earlier captains when Zim was stronger or not playing, not to mention others?
Think it over...

I agree.. Ramesh was treated very badly. I have felt a lot for him as I really liked him when he played for India. But why put the blame on the captain totally??

Sourav is very superstitious, if only you know. Nevermind, this ain't that big an issue. Its somewhat
Like captain, like supporters,...

Sachin has to play wherever the team needs him to play!!Had it been some other captain, he would never have had the guts to move Sachin around in the batting order based on Sachin's popularity and his experience in the game!!

Die hard Ganguly supporter there! Shame you've Sachin in your Avatar.
Guts, soon we'll be having Nehra opening with Zaheer, Sachin at 11. Let me tell you, its idioticness if anything.

And regarding chasing huge totals,...

If you realise, we've failed to chase low totals more frequently.

You can keep on bringing up silly reasons to support your argument that Ganguly is a worse captain

Its silly that Sachin,Dravid and Laxman are great players. Its silly that Indian team is neither weak nor over-rated. Its silly that since World cup we managed only 9 good ODI wins compared to 21 losses. Its silly we failed to defend a test series after 35 years. Its silly Sourav's average in 2004 ODIs was only 32 and strike rate only 70. Its silly Sourav's a great player of spin and medium bowlers and still loves defending them. Its silly Tugga was dropped from Aussie side. Its silly that its more important to win than to play. Huh! Its time you realise what's truth and what's silly.

disclaimer : only for those who can read and UNDERSTAND !!!... belive it or not but he is the closest to sachin as far as centuries r concerned

Tell me when last he scored a century. Way back in WC 2003 against Kenya. Enough to tell you its his time to retire. He may have been a great player, but if you don't drop a player even the team begins sucking under him then your team is going to die an agonising death.
Punter has a better record than Tugga, Vaughan's better than Hussain, ...

As soon as we lose people start questioning abilities of our captain and coach y do they forget so easily that this r the same people who almost won us the world cup, where were their abilities back then?

Almost means didn't. That hurts, but that's a fact. Well, Tugga's being dropped from Aussie ODI side is enough to tell you what's more important. As far as expectations are to be talked about, do you mean to say we shouldn't expect anything at all from the Indian team that comprises of Sachin,Dravid,etc. or do you simply agree with what I put in quotes in my first post in this thread.

between we have won 70 matches under his captainship and he has scored at an avg of 55.15 in our winning causes

That adds up wins against Bangla,Kenya,... Former captains didn't enjoy these. And Oh! Why not put this Indian team against Windies and English of 70's and 80's to worsen his record still further? Then the team combination,... It was far more difficult to win matches in those days

Talking about his performance and bold decisions here are few:

Let me tell you, these are things of past. Live in present. He may've been a great captain, but now he could not make any more bold decisions that could improve the state of the Indian team. Its the time to retire.

I highly doubt dravid would be even come close to anything like that, he is so cool that he would accept whatever he gets...

That's perhaps just an illusion, how many matches has he captained in? And can you prove it anyhow? I remember Multan pitch was more dead than Kanpur and bowling changes, field settings,etc. were all very good in Mumbai.

dude cricket is not gentlemens game anymore
just look at all the mean players out there in this world...
we need a captain who can deal with daemons in eyes...and thanks to his personal abilities he brought that ruthless agression into our team...

When you don't win, nothing counts? Aggression, I remember how easy it is to tear away India's bowlers in slog overs. And India fail to chase 70 kind of scores in last 10 overs. Now, if Veeru,Yuvi,Kaifu are aggressive,...but even then what about Dada himself?

gangully is even great at playing this mind games, on and off the field...
we need a captain who is agressive like Ricky pointing not cool like Inzi...
and as far as his recent score is concerned he hasnt dont too bad either...
8 decent scores (40+ runs) from his last 20 innings, thats not bad at all....

Mind games, I remember the one played on Chopra. And oh! law of averages, great Mumbai pitch, is that professionalism to you? Inzi has a better record than Ganguly and an overseas victory. 40+ that's his average, what's so special? Not bad 80 ball 55, oh! that's aggressive.

that everyone have there own role in a team
if u look at few recent matches u would realise that after loosing couple of wickets saurav and rahul simply try to occupy the crease

Dravid's far better then Sourav. He atleast attempts to take some singles and quick runs. He alos plays some shots. Sourav simply defends even when he could attack spinners,etc. And there's no team except India where you find such a player. For that Bangladesh match, Sourav could've been faster 106/1 in 13 overs isn't a destroyed situation. And playing aggressively isn't getting out, specially for a person who's good at it.

FEW DUMB PEOPLE SELECTED HIM TO LEAD ASIA XI
right???

RIGHT!

seriously doing some research by yourself wont hurt before make baseless comments

Where from are you doing your Ph.D mate?

Another long post but a good and meaningful post!!

I repeat,... like captain, like fans,...

Ajit you should make a book about how ganguly is rather then posting it in here.

Seriously, if people stop posting in Ganguly's favour, I will stop posting against him. I blame Ganguly for all perils of the Indian team.

Ganguly is to Indian cricket team as Imran was to Pakistan. He has done good for the team itself, and brought a lot of confidence to the team and made tigers out of pathetic pussies. For that you have to give him credit. But still as a person, Ganguly is a spoiled asshole who thinks everyone is beneath him in stature. And for that reason, I dont like him.

Seriously, Imran Khan's comparison is too much of respect.

The people who argue for him are trying to make others know that he is not a bad captain and he has done some good for the team.

Whatever, but we have not been winning recently and that's enough to drop him. Especially, when Tugga,Hussain,etc. were...

The one big thing that hurts me is:
We didn't use to win because we didn't had good players, now we don't win despite having them. It means we'll never ever win. Thanks to Ganguly.

 

[sachinisgod]

Ajit you weren't browsing this side when I became a member here - my id and my signature then - bore testimony to the fact that I am one of the many worshippers of the Indian living God...I changed that signature just for a noble cause...also you have not browsed the chat forum well too...look at the thread called Cricket Anecdotes and you'll understand what I mean...and personally I belong to a group of fans of sachin that travels from Baroda to Mumbai just to have dinner at the Masters' new restaurant...

Your list of tournaments above is flawed - coz one it doesn't count the 2000 to 2003 period(when he led india to Champions Trophy Final in Nairobi - and that too when India were under tremendous pressure due to the betting scandal. Of course the most ignominious defeat for India came under him too - vs Sl in Sharjah) and then you forget the 2002 Champions Trophy - if Jayasuriya were to be a member here he too would concede that India would have won both the finals and all courtesy to a spell by Veeru against the Springboks in the semis - of course it was the skipper who threw the ball to him...You try and neglect the vehemence with which Indian team came back in Kolkata(though the main inspiration was that epic partnership...but you cannot discount the fact that Ganguly used and exalted Bhajji really well in that series)...

The fact is that it is of cricketing fans like you that it is written that to a cricket fan a captain is as good as his last series...I just hope that this is true coz then yu'll change ur opinion abt him in next three months...


I like the way you concede to the fact that ganguly as a skipper is unchangeable...when you say

We didn't use to win because we didn't had good players, now we don't win despite having them. It means we'll never ever win. Thanks to Ganguly.

of course the pessimism that you show means that your eyes will always remain fixed on defeat...alas!

 

[Ajit]

I we don't win a tournament, it doesn't matter whether we reached the finals or we didn't?

The fact is that it is of cricketing fans like you that it is written that to a cricket fan a captain is as good as his last series...I just hope that this is true coz then yu'll change ur opinion abt him in next three months...

Obviously, why else was Tugga dropped from Aussie side? But what makes you feel a miracle is happening in next 3 months.

I like the way you concede to the fact that ganguly as a skipper is unchangeable...when you say

This is tragically true.

of course the pessimism that you show means that your eyes will always remain fixed on defeat...alas!

Well, I can never be optimistic with Sourav as captain.

 

[sachinisgod]

I we don't win a tournament, it doesn't matter whether we reached the finals or we didn't?

yeah and the number of matches that you win to get there...the finals that were washed off in Colombo and Dhaka...now thats an example of your fixation with defeat...

man we are in a country where the captains are given really long runs and not in our neighbouring country where the captain's the first one to go even after an expected defeat...though I can admit it Inzy is a much better player and perhaps even a skipper than Ganguly will ever be...but that doesn't diminish Ganguly's stature in Indian cricketing history, present and future - one little bit...

 

[Ajit]

From, hereon what do you think Ganguly can achieve?Defeats against Ban,Ken,...

Do we ever remember anything but tournament victories of the past? From 80's I know about World Cup,World Series,... but nothing else. 10 years later, None would give a damn to meaningless victories. How many times has England won WC anyway?

The biggest reason we'll never agree is that I rate defeats much higher than victories.
If a team wins 10 matches and also lose 10 matches, sachinisgod will call it great.
I say this record sucks.

I ask why we lost 10? whereas sachinisgod boasts the fact we won an equal number.

 

[sachinisgod]

yeah but the point is that we cannot look forward with an outlook that says - "look we are going to be thrashed by Pakistan this March and then by Sri Lanka in July"...my way of looking at things is "if under his captaincy we could achieve this much, we should be able to achieve more sooner or later" and i am a patient man...

and btw...as far as I remember I have never cited a tournament victory list in this thread...its you who is getting fixed to what we didn't achieve under Ganguly...i have just tried to convey what we have...

also in sport what is the biggest inspiration if not the past?

 

[Ajit]

Patience, well if I remember Asia Cup,Holland,England,ICC Champions trophy,Australia series,Platinum Jubilee match,Bangladesh defeat,ASIA XI defeat, is it not a bit too much? And if it is sooner, its good, but what do you mean by later, in next century!

as far as I remember I have never cited a tournament victory list in this thread...its you who is getting fixed to what we didn't achieve under Ganguly

Tournaments
1.Natwest Trophy Victory(that's the only tournament if you know, World Cup!)

That ends up the victory list.

 

[m_vaughan]

Well I dont think India lost all those competitions because Ganguly was the captain, but simply because of the severe lack of consistency that has been so very common with the Indian Cricket Team. That little bit of success that they had starting from the World Cup right uptil the Pakistan tour, was just a purple patch.

But unlike before, the Indian team is now much more united and cohesive, thanks to Ganguly. Surely the Indian team under Ganguly is rated much higher, than the ones captained by Azharuddin and Sachin.

I dont really see how India's fortunes will change, by just getting rid of Saurav.

 

[ZoraxDoom]

Half of India's losses were close ones, with an inconsistent team. Tendulkar playes a vital role, as Batsman, Bowler and mentor to the young ones. Sehwag plays his shots cause he knows the worlds best batsman is on the other side. Irfan admitted that him and maybe all bowlers in the India camp take encouragement when they walk back and see Tendulkar is there, always ready to lend advice when they are not bowling well. he missed half the 2004 season and was not at his peak for the most of it. This played a crucial role in indias losses, and Ganguly had to play the long innings for most of the year without Tendulkar to fall back on. Laxman and Dravid both did well but two batsmen don't win matches, and seeing Kaif, Yuvraj, Kumble or any other member of the team at Mid Off/On is slightly less encouraging. IMO the abscence of Tendulkar played a role in India's losses with an inconsistan team, cause- as u can see- India's batting and bowling both suffered with the lack of his experience.....