West Indian Tour of India, 2013: Sachin's 200th Test Appearance

[SaiSrini]

Agreed. Dhoni did what he thought would give the team the best chance to win. He's been proven right, because we're going to win this thing inside three days, by an innings. Can't really get much more comprehensive than that.

All this Sachin-centric mania is fine off-field, but the on-field aspect of it should never get in the way of the game. The game must be above individuals, and if the fans can't understand that, then they don't deserve the game. I know this is unpopular opinion, but I'll be very glad once the Sachin bandwagon fans are gone. You can have your God, and I can have my cricket.

Have your cricket. Let's see how long it lasts. Once the fans get fed up of T20's, they will want to get back to test cricket. But we will most likely not have the kind of legends/superstars who make test cricket so popular. And so, cricket(in India; can't talk for other nations) might end up neither here nor there.

Talk all you want.... Sachin and his bandwagon of fans are what have made cricket so popular in India. Don't know when you started watching cricket, but if it was late into this decade, probably Sachin and his bandwagon of fans were the reason why you also started watching the game......

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I dont think India will ever see another superstar who gets the kind of adulation that Sachin Tendulkar does. We might probably find another batsman who breaks Sachin's records. But Sachin is not just about his records. He is more about his personality, his stature, his reputation and the man himself. His batting made him initially, but today the end product of Sachin Tendulkar is far more than just batting.

 

[used2bcool]

Have your cricket. Let's see how long it lasts. Once the fans get fed up of T20's, they will want to get back to test cricket. But we will most likely not have the kind of legends/superstars who make test cricket so popular. And so, cricket might end up neither here nor there.

Talk all you want.... Sachin and his bandwagon of fans are what have made cricket so popular in India. Don't know when you started watching cricket, but if it was late into this decade, probably Sachin and his bandwagon of fans were the reason why you also started watching the game......

I agree that cricket's popularity in India has a lot to do with Tendulkar mania. For the record, I started watching in 1992; I was six. Sachin mania hadn't really taken over fully yet, so he's not the reason I started watching.

I'm not sure why my argument against bandwagon fans got equated to a T20/Test debate. I love my Tests far more than I do my T20. But if bandwagon fans of personalities (instead of the game) is what is keeping cricket afloat, then the game is in serious trouble anyway. And bandwagon fandom (and deification of individuals as an extension) seems to be a characteristic of Indian fans, in that we will support superstars far more than the craft (the obvious analogy is the film industry).

Bandwagon fans are never good for any sport because the sport cannot sustain them. And real fans accept that the game is bigger than any individual.

 

[surendar]

Sai, I would have preferred Dhoni to have declared the innings around 300 at the least. But I still like this way, reason being Sachin not a shining star in 4th innings and I really don't want him to get dismissed again. I would stay on the happy side of his last innings being 50+ one. Very emotional moment, I hope he plays some All Stars XI or some charity matches soon.

 

[SaiSrini]

Sai, I would have preferred Dhoni to have declared the innings around 300 at the least. But I still like this way, reason being Sachin not a shining star in 4th innings and I really don't want him to get dismissed again. I would stay on the happy side of his last innings being 50+ one. Very emotional moment, I hope he plays some All Stars XI or some charity matches soon.

Its pretty much similar to what I said. Dhoni could have taken into account the momentous occasion of this match and could have done something to make sure Sachin gets another opportunity to bat. And when Sachin batted in the first innings, people were not ready to accept that its his last innings. We do want to watch his innings with the thought that its his last ever. That way, we can salute him better.

 

[surendar]

I agree that cricket's popularity in India has a lot to do with Tendulkar mania. For the record, I started watching in 1992; I was six. Sachin mania hadn't really taken over fully yet, so he's not the reason I started watching.

That is good. So what is the point you want to convey? We should not give a red carpet to Sachin just because this is just yet another cricket series which should end like conventional style? We should not get heart-touched to see a man going away after such a domination in cricket era? There shouldn't be any exceptions to send off a man who has incredibly played 200 test matches for nation? What is it you want to tell? I cannot stay outside from exceptions because, to see another cricket player like Tendulkar - my hair will loose off from my head and I will be out of energy in my old age, and so I want to live with the present moment which I can afford.

To be frank, I even felt emotional when Michael Schumacher left Ferrari some years back. This is not that, its Schumacher-mania but it is the way people feel when their idols go off from a specific field. If Tendulkar is not your role model/idol, it is very fine and none is insitsing you to be so.

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Its pretty much similar to what I said. Dhoni could have taken into account the momentous occasion of this match and could have done something to make sure Sachin gets another opportunity to bat. And when Sachin batted in the first innings, people were not ready to accept that its his last innings. We do want to watch his innings with the thought that its his last ever. That way, we can salute him better.

I hope Mumbai has organized a good send off program in the end, after all it is his home ground. I really look forward for his last speech as a cricket player.

 

[abhi_jacko]

I am all for giving Sachin a send off. I am very emotional about no more Sachin and I was very upset when Sammy took that catch (GRRR).

But I don't think Dhoni can be blamed for anything. He did what is best for the team and the result is there for everyone to see. Moreover, a person like Sachin who gave his heart and soul for his country and his team would disapprove if Dhoni compromised the team in any way for whatever reason, least of all to give Sachin a better send off

Hope Sachin gets a chance to roll over his arm for a couple of overs

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I would like to add:
This whole no one is greater than the game outcry is very noble and everything in thought. But it will always be different for people who love Sachin.
For the longest time, Cricket was equal to Sachin for Indian fans. The stories of people switching of their TV sets or leaving the stadium when Sachin got out were the reality of Indian cricket. So Sachin is not bigger than the sport (he never tried to be), but for many of us he will be the best thing about the sport (and our lives).

 

[used2bcool]

That is good. So what is the point you want to convey? We should not give a red carpet to Sachin just because this is just yet another cricket series which should end like conventional style? We should not get heart-touched to see a man going away after such a domination in cricket era? There shouldn't be any exceptions to send off a man who has incredibly played 200 test matches for nation? What is it you want to tell? I cannot stay outside from exceptions because, to see another cricket player like Tendulkar - my hair will loose off from my head and I will be out of energy in my old age, and so I want to live with the present moment which I can afford.

I have no problem with Tendulkar getting his send-off, he has deserved it. My problem is with all the people saying India should've declared or batted first or really anything else to do with match strategy. You don't significantly change match strategy to accommodate an individual, no matter how big of a star he is.

The second point was about bandwagon fans and the culture of the deification of individuals in a team sport, both of which frankly make me sick.

This whole no one is greater than the game outcry is very noble and everything in thought. But it will always be different for people who love Sachin.
For the longest time, Cricket was equal to Sachin for Indian fans. The stories of people switching of their TV sets or leaving the stadium when Sachin got out were the reality of Indian cricket. So Sachin is not bigger than the sport (he never tried to be), but for many of us he will be the best thing about the sport (and our lives).

I fully understand this point. My gripe is not against Sachin, as by all accounts he has been a dignified presence and a class act his entire career. I don't think he has tried to be bigger than the sport. But my axe to grind is against those fans you mentioned, the same ones who equated Indian cricket to Sachin and turned the TV off when he got out. Those are what I call bandwagon fans, and the game will be no poorer for losing them.

 

[SaiSrini]

I have no problem with Tendulkar getting his send-off, he has deserved it. My problem is with all the people saying India should've declared or batted first or really anything else to do with match strategy. You don't significantly change match strategy to accommodate an individual, no matter how big of a star he is.

The second point was about bandwagon fans and the culture of the deification of individuals in a team sport, both of which frankly make me sick.


I fully understand this point. My gripe is not against Sachin, as by all accounts he has been a dignified presence and a class act his entire career. I don't think he has tried to be bigger than the sport. But my axe to grind is against those fans you mentioned, the same ones who equated Indian cricket to Sachin and turned the TV off when he got out. Those are what I call bandwagon fans, and the game will be no poorer for losing them.

Those fans wont stop watching the game if Sachin doesnt play. They will still watch it. They are just so obsessed with the fact that Sachin was the only hope. And this was way back in the 90's. In the current decade, Sachin has never been that guy who would invoke people to turn TV sets off once he gets out.

But considering a career like his, it would have been good if Dhoni had given him max opportunity to bat twice. And also considering it from a match context, India would not have given any advantage to the opposition by batting first. For a team like India, there were no demons on that pitch. India could have easily batted Day 1 and 2 and piled up a huge score batting first.

 

[abhi_jacko]

I fully understand this point. My gripe is not against Sachin, as by all accounts he has been a dignified presence and a class act his entire career. I don't think he has tried to be bigger than the sport. But my axe to grind is against those fans you mentioned, the same ones who equated Indian cricket to Sachin and turned the TV off when he got out. Those are what I call bandwagon fans, and the game will be no poorer for losing them.

I do see where you are coming from and at times I do share your belief.

But I think the game will indeed be poorer for losing such fans .. if cricket was just full of passionate fans who only cared about the sport, it would be a very boring sport to watch. I think diversity of fans is very important .. This is what I believe ..

I think we need T20 fans who just watch cricket because they want to have a good time and enjoy the bang-bang show, as much as we need the purists who love the sport for all the various technical aspect. Same way, we cant get rid of the fans who love certain sporting personalities as much as or more than the sport. Because that personality is part of the cricketing world and at the end of the day cricket is what defines him

One example from my personal life - (have shared it before) - my Grandmother only watched cricket when Sachin batted because she thought of him as a part of the family (ghar ka bachcha). When he got out, she went on to do her chores for the day.

Its hard to explain her love for Sachin, and she was a 'bandwagon fan' as you call them, but I think it was such a beautiful thing. Cricket gained a fan because of a player's personality, which in turn was built up through cricket. I personally find it fascinating .. almost spiritual

 

[War]

anyway, lets talk about when War thought that india would fall behind an "improving" west indies side... (sorry mate, I'm never letting that one go )

Haha absolute gold

War might disagree with that. He thinks WI is much more talented than India.

Windies certainly aren't helping my prediction with they the way they are playing. But as I mentioned in the other thread, when i made that comment after the ENG beat them @ home, IND have played AUS & WI teams @ home that were horribly sub par.

So whatever flaws that were showing up then by IND have been kept under the lid. Talk to me after IND goes on tour in the next 15 months & lets see if windies make any team and mental changes to their approach to tests or continue to remain a T20 team.

Aalay i never said Windies were more talented than IND. I simply said i think Windies talent was comparable. While IND have the better young batsmen (easily the best in the world, although some have to prove themselves overseas) i gave WI the edge in pace bowling options and spin.

Just a year ago Ojha/Ashwin could not trouble ENG & i'm not convinced they are more skilled than Narine/Shillingford.

 

[surendar]

But my axe to grind is against those fans you mentioned, the same ones who equated Indian cricket to Sachin and turned the TV off when he got out. Those are what I call bandwagon fans, and the game will be no poorer for losing them.

How many of the matches you have followed or can remember the ones in which India has played between 1995 & 2000?

 

[aditya123]

India not being a homogeneous nation is a fallacy; especially when compared to the population of diversity of nations like England...maybe not Australia as much. The differences in race between the Indo Aryan and Dravidian races are moot. They are mostly artificially constructed barriers. The fact is outside of India, no matter if you are 'Madrasi, Bengali, or Marathi', you are labelled as 'Indian'. The differences in Religion too are, IMHO, blown out of proportion. In the end all Indians are...Indians. In modern India these artificial differences have no place if society is to progress.

Other than that, Tendulkar's story is one that transcends boundaries; I see it across the lines of different countries rather than the ones that Indians use to divide themselves into.

Prarara, I never said that those differences are negative. However, it is hard to deny the fact that each state in India has its own identity, own customs and own heroes. Point me to one public figure who has a pan-India following?

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I fully understand this point. My gripe is not against Sachin, as by all accounts he has been a dignified presence and a class act his entire career. I don't think he has tried to be bigger than the sport. But my axe to grind is against those fans you mentioned, the same ones who equated Indian cricket to Sachin and turned the TV off when he got out. Those are what I call bandwagon fans, and the game will be no poorer for losing them.

If you followed India in the 90s, you would know why the televisions got switched off. It was not because of not wanting to follow the other 11 but for all of us who have followed Indian cricket in the 90s, Tendulkar was the only hope, the only one in the Indian team rising above mediocrity of those around him. If he swam, we swam and if he sank, so did the Indian side.

 

[AMB]

Why did Dravid never get the farewell that Sachin is getting btw? BCCI basically created a series for Sachin so why not Dravid.

Rahul Dravid was a great cricketer but SRT is the Indian pride and GOC of India.

 

[surendar]

Certain folks who just knew Tendulkar through cric info or some articles or YouTube video are not going to get anyways on these things. It's understandable to ask what is so special in him, for these days kids in particular.

 

[used2bcool]

How many of the matches you have followed or can remember the ones in which India has played between 1995 & 2000?

I have no idea what you're trying to prove with this. I followed pretty much every single cricket match I could during those years, since I was in school and had a LOT of free time at hand.

One example from my personal life - (have shared it before) - my Grandmother only watched cricket when Sachin batted because she thought of him as a part of the family (ghar ka bachcha). When he got out, she went on to do her chores for the day.

Its hard to explain her love for Sachin, and she was a 'bandwagon fan' as you call them, but I think it was such a beautiful thing. Cricket gained a fan because of a player's personality, which in turn was built up through cricket. I personally find it fascinating .. almost spiritual

This is indeed a beautiful thing.

If you followed India in the 90s, you would know why the televisions got switched off. It was not because of not wanting to follow the other 11 but for all of us who have followed Indian cricket in the 90s, Tendulkar was the only hope, the only one in the Indian team rising above mediocrity of those around him. If he swam, we swam and if he sank, so did the Indian side.

I think this applies only to ODI cricket. I did some digging, and it certainly validates your stand as far as ODIs are concerned. Not so much for Tests, though.

Here is Tendulkar from 1990-99:
In Tests:
Won: 18 tests, avg 59.21, 4 hundreds, 2 MoM, no contribution in 7 matches (highest score 44*)
Lost: 20 tests, avg 39.47, 7 hundreds, 2 MoM, no contribution in 10 matches (highest score 40)
Draw: 31 tests, avg 78.97, 11 hundreds, 3 MoM, no contribution in 13 matches (highest score 43)

Here, "no contribution" means less than 50 runs in the match and less than 2 wickets. Sachin contributed to 61% of India's wins, 50% of India's losses, and 58% of the draws, so that's not that much of a difference. ODIs are a different story.

In ODIs:
Won: 109 ODI, avg 61.77, 20 hundreds, 53 wickets @ 32.26, no contribution in 36 matches, 33 MoM
Lost: 104 ODI, avg 28.42, 4 hundreds, 22 wickets @84.04, no contribution in 57 matches, 2 MoM

"No contribution" is less than 30 runs and less that 1 wicket. Sachin contributed to 67% of India's wins but only 45% of India's losses, thereby proving his status as a premier ODI matchwinner.

My greater point is about giving up on the team on the basis of individual performance. The idea that it's OK to give up on the team and the match just because Tendulkar was out doesn't sit well with me because it doesn't say a whole lot for the loyalty of the fans to their team. And I've suffered through plenty of 1990s India matches.